PART 1



CIS THREAD(S) FOLLOWING
SEPT. 22 UPLOAD OF CIRCLE.TXT.

(Right margin adjusted for viewing utilities and
loading by most word processors, text-with-line-breaks.)

(As of this date There were 52 downloads of this file from
ISSUES/PARANORMAL Lib. 10, uploaded Sept. 22, 1991).


------------------------

#: 45583 S7/Extraterrestrials?
23-Sep-91 21:16:53
Sb: #45328-#Crop circles
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335 (X)

There is a substantial thread on crop circles which has been
uploaded to Issues, Sec 10, Paranormal. It was taken from
the Science and Health Forum of the WGA-BBS, a members-only
BBS for the Writers Guild of America (television and
screenwriters). I was part of this discussion, which
develops some surprising but (for me) very satisfying
explanations. The messages were uploaded on Compuserve
partly in hope that those with greater expertise in the
matters that are discussed -- millimeter and sub-millimeter
lasers, masers, the physical effects of ionized gases, etc
- would provide commentary.

There is 1 Reply.


#:
17555 S3/General
30-Sep-91 05:47:24
Sb: #17344-Controversial new file
Fm: stuart lees 75300,247
To: Trevor Prinn (UK) 100016,2726

I'm inclined to agree with you about the hoaxers - they seem
to have been very quiet about their exploits since the
initial claims.

There are a lot of unanswered questions about the circles,
and every explanation only seems to emphasise how little
anyone knows about them. I think the explanation for the
braiding given in circle.txt was to do with the maser
spinning as it was emitted...that doesnt explain the stalks
being bent at the same height though, does it. I must admit,
I find the maser idea a bit improbable - there have got to
be better test sites than Wiltshire - but then the whole
thing is improbable.

Have you seen any of these circles yourself Trevor?

-Stuart


#: 45683 S7/Extraterrestrials?
29-Sep-91 00:21:36
Sb: #45675-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Since the thread that Sabaroff uploaded as CIRCLE.TXT, there
have been several more small indications that the thesis may
be correct. In NATURE last week is an article called
"Measurement of atmospheric wavefront distortion using
scattered light from a laser guide-star", which is based on
US Dept of Defense work that began secretly in 1981, and was
declassified in May of this year. So it is clear that the
gov't has indeed been working within the general realm of
lasers and the atmos-/meso-sphere.

Also it has been discovered that the Dave/Doug hoaxster
confession was arranged by a "news agency" that receives
mail through its accountants, and does not have a telephone.
Dave and Doug were asked point-blank on a talk show if they
had ever been employed by a governmental intelligence
agency, but they refused to answer, and chose to laugh the
question off.

(I should point out that I was a participant in the
CIRCLE.TXT thread, and that I, too, am anxious for comment
or response from those most knowledgeable in the fields
under discussion. In point of fact, I would be happier if
our conclusions were entirely incorrect, and the circles
were the result of hoaxes, or whirlwinds.)


#: 45697 S7/Extraterrestrials?
29-Sep-91 23:23:38
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Michael, needless to say I was delighted by the disclosures
regarding DOUG/DAVE. We should bring them to L.A. and make
them producers.

On our WGA BBS, as you know, we also have a News and Current
events forum. There were some things in President Bush's
recent speech regarding radical reductions in offensive
nuclear capabilities, and the centralization of reduced
stockpiles, *and the diversion of large portions of the
spared budget to B2 and SDI research* which I found
startling, to say the least. Since much of our CIRCLE.TXT
thread attributes (some) of the crop formations (calling
them simply "circles" now seems simplistic) to SDI connected
maser/laser experiments, some things make more sense. The
press has tended to discredit the concept of SDI as do most
scientists, yet if we call it EARTH WARS instead of STAR
WARS it makes more sense.

Bush called for retention of retaliatory systems, such as
submarine based weapons, and the clustering of fixed site
silos - reduced to single warhead missiles. Admirable, but
inconceivable unless we had something else to back it up.

A missile's greatest enemy is Electromagnetic Pulse Effect
(EMP), something that microwave energy generates in enormous
quantities. I suspect when we talk about "hardening" silos
(or used to), the hardening referred to EMP, not structural
integrity. This would suggest another credible function for
space borne maser technology - and submarines would be
shielded and cloaked from it. Am I looking too hard for a
positive side to all this...?

Bob


There is 1 Reply.


#: 45698 S7/Extraterrestrials?
30-Sep-91 01:58:08
Sb: #45697-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

You've got it a bit wrong. EMP is *not* produced by
microwave emission. You can induce a phenomena that is
similiar, but much reduced in magnitude. This assumes that
you have lots of rust, aluminium oxide, and conductors of a
wavelength appropriate to the frequency. Otherwise it all
gets dissipated as heat. Not very much heat, at that.

Now, hardening *did* factor in EMP, but it also factored in
blast effect, radiation hardness, and so on. EMP is by
necessity a low frequency phenomenon - on the order of a few
10's of hertz at best - and mostly a DC voltage field at
that. The EMP test sites are the worlds largest ELF
generators. (ELF = Extremely Low Frequency - 10khz and
below.)
Tom G.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45702 S7/Extraterrestrials?
30-Sep-91 06:16:37
Sb: #45698-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)

Tom, thanks for the clarification regarding the
microwave/EMP relationship. It's equally useful to know that
our logical processes have led us to an incorrect
association, as it is to be confirmed. Perhaps more so, and
your obvious expertise is much appreciated. We want to get
it right. Responses like yours are welcome because their
corrections lead to rethought questions. Could a very
strong maser in any way affect the guidance and/or control
systems of a missile as it leaves it's silo? And, if you
know, what range of frequencies are considered to fall
within the spectrum known as "microwave?"

It is also my understanding that a nuclear detonation above
ground would itself generate enough particle energy to
affect communications and other electronic systems, and that
such an event occured in the Pacific some years ago and
wasn't much publicized. Are you aware of (that you can
discuss) any spectra of radiation other than light or
"microwave" which can be generated as coherent energy in a
way similar to the maser/laser technology?

Bob


#: 45716 S7/Extraterrestrials?
30-Sep-91 17:35:59
Sb: #circle.txt
Fm: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312
To: 71251,2445 (X)

Bob,

One thing that would be of great interest regarding SDI
hypothesis would be the aspect of the ellipses (you as well
as others noted that they are not circles). If beams struck
from geosynchonous orbit, they would all have the same
aspect - assuming the same platform. However, I don't know
that SDI satellites would be geosynchronous. Certainly
kinetic devices wouldn't be put out that far because of
transit time. Beam weapons would have to deal with spread
and hence attenuation over that distance.

Be that as it may, the aspect ratio and orientation would be
very interesting. Of course, I am assuming our jokers are
using circular 'stencils'. If the originating platform is
deliberately firing ellipses, all bets are off.

Jon Brunson 76477,1312

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45717 S7/Extraterrestrials?
30-Sep-91 17:48:08
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Having just finished reading the recently uploaded
CIRCLE.TXT discussion, I wanted to commend you (as the
leading provocateur of the discussion) for what is by far
the most innovative and thoughtful analysis of the phenomena
I have yet encountered. Never before came across a BBS
thread that made for such a compelling read!

Not being of a conspiratorial bent, I am struggling mightily
with your hypothesis that our defense establishment (or a
small "black area" therein) would deliberately utilize the
ancient circle legends of Wiltshire (a subject of rather
remarkable obscurity until recently!) to disguise the ground
effect of their maser/laser (or whatever) SDI tests. If you
are correct that these are artifacts of SDI testing, would
it not be safe to assume that *every* possible safeguard
would be taken to insure the secrecy of the results? If so,
it would seemingly require monumental courage and
presumptiousness for an SDI project manager to conclude that
the best of all possible testing alternatives would be a
public display on the plains of Wiltshire. Would that our
defense bureaucrats had that kind of imagination and guts!

Another point; you mentioned that the technology necessary
to create these patterns was, in part at least, probably
made possible through the development of relatively high
temperature superconducters. However, did not the circle
phenomena develop in the early 80's, before these
breakthroughs occurred? Seems to me that the *real*
technological breakthrough was made at the time the first
circles were created in the early 80's. The developments in
the circle patterns since the early days reflect a
relatively slow and plodding developmental pace (fairly
modest variations on a theme) considering the magnitude of
the original breakthrough (that would allow a circle to be
created in the first place. [continued in the reply]

There are 2 Replies.

#: 45718 S7/Extraterrestrials?
30-Sep-91 17:48:12
Sb: #45717-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

[continued]

Anyway, keep up the good work in prodding people to do some
analytical thinking about one of the more intriguing
mysteries of our time.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45726 S7/Extraterrestrials?
30-Sep-91 20:38:46
Sb: #45718-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

In the most recent issue of Nature is an article based on
research and testing done by the Dept of Defense, starting
in 1981, of ground to air laser imaging. As I make out, they
were creating pin-points -- for use as artificial star-
guides -- at a height of ten miles. This is spectacular
lack of beam attenuation.

The authors note that this work has continued since 1981,
but was de-classified (to a degree) in May of this year. So
we know now that related work was going on, in the time
frame under discussion.


#: 45727 S7/Extraterrestrials?
30-Sep-91 23:39:06
Sb: #45702-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

I should give some clarifications to my answer, first of all
- it was rather late, and I was briefer in my reply than I
meant to be. Large, (by large I mean gigawatts) transmitters
can affect the guidance system of a missile by means of
electromagnetic coupling. You can see this effect in a more
limited fashion (and with a slightly different pathway) in
your television set, when the next door ham beams a kilowatt
down your TV antenna. Most of the energy is dissipated as
heat in the receiving antenna, but a couple of volts of RF
will still be coupled into the set. A simple filter will
prevent this from being a problem - the energy gets
dissipated as heat in the filter.

Heating effects of a magnitude to severly disrupt a missile
are by no means certain. You *can* potentially swamp a
sensor with the coupled energy. Simple screening would take
care of that. We do it all of the time. (Look at the door of
your microwave oven for an example.)

The most promising beam weapons are the neutral particle
beam and the laser - either X-Ray, IR, or gamma. No one has
produced a gamma ray laser yet, and we don't have a clue
about how to do it, but it *is* theoretically possible.
Masers are non-starters - they're bloody fussy beasts. You
could use them in theory, but not in practice.

The test you are refering to is Dominic Starfish Prime. This
test was designed to test the effects of high-altitude burst
on radio communications and radar, and not coincidentally,
to test the long range effects of EMP. These effects were
first noticed during a then secret three-shot high altitude
test in the South Atlantic - the Argus series - sometime in
1958. Three more high-altitude bursts took place in the
Dominic series, but only one had sufficient size to have
anything more than negligble effect. The earliest reference
in the open literature that I have is in the 1964 edition of
"The Effects of Nuclear Weapons". By the Third edition <
Cont'd >

There are 2 Replies.


#: 45728 S7/Extraterrestrials?
30-Sep-91 23:41:13
Sb: #45716-#circle.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312 (X)

Jon, the ellipses might be accounted for either by very
slight drift of the stationary beam source, or by angle of
incidence if it were slightly off a perpendicular with the
target below. Considering the physical dimensions of most
of the formations, and presuming a width of less than a
centimeter for the point of emission, that's well within the
paramaters of experiments already conducted here. From
25,000 miles - the altitude of a geosynchronous orbiter, the
width of the formations is not contra-indicated by published
test results *in the atmosphere.*. From overhead, the beam
would have to penetrate a desnsity unit of only one
Atmosphere - 14.7 lbs/sq. inch. Surface experiments produce
less spread than we're seeing, over ground distances with an
"equivalence" of ten or more atmospheres.

Such experiments have been done at an aerospace facility in
the hills of Malibu, quite close to where I live. The
stated purpose was to accurately place a stationary spot on
terrain MANY miles away, for studies of tiny increments of
earth movement - ostensibly for earthquake detection study.

As a pilot, I have made many approaches into the smog of Los
Angeles. From overhead, the ground can be clearly seen, but
when descending into the layer at a normal rate of descent,
one is looking forward into it edgewise. Visibility
sometimes drops from unlimited (downward) to less than a 1/4
mile edgewise. That's one reason an instrument rating is so
important here. As to attenuation, we can already use
kinetic devices to cut plate steel. I don't find it
inconceivable that given the very high emission power
possible, that we would still receive enough energy over
that distance, and relatively narrow spread (1 cm. < 100
yards) to produce an effect. Also, geosynchronicity would be
a must for precision, and prehaps safety. (*more on stencils
in reply*) Bob.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45729 S7/Extraterrestrials?
30-Sep-91 23:41:28
Sb: #45717-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

Erik, your encouraging and complimentary response to
CIRCLE.TXT is received with delight by all involved.
Thanks! We're all professional writers, and have decided to
place you in our Wills. We can be a vain lot...

Re the conspiratorial aspect of the whole thing, I think it
was the true purpose of STAR wars in the first place. Too
many scientists debunked it in open hearings, while closed-
door appropriations committees kept pouring classified money
into it for me to believe it wasn't something "other" from
the outset. As to the secrecy of the results, the likelihood
was that the results might have been unpredictably
detectable by the spy satellites of other countries (this
started many years before Gorbachev). By placing the
formations in a location (I'm also presuming an Anglo-
American co-venture) which would guarantee obfuscation by
the metaphysical history of the location, and simulating it,
the story stayed on the occult book shelves for years.

"It's an old story...". The perfect confounder for a new
story. And so the CCCS book confirms. Great photos, not one
word about the possibility of artifacts of human technology.
Obviously, it worked. It's taken over ten years to get to
this discussion. This kind of planning would have taken
place among a very few at the top - certainly beyond the
"need-to-know" of a project manager. By that I mean Joint
Chiefs, the NSA, CIA, Executive branch. The shuttle pilots
who may have deployed the orbiter(s) need not have known
their function - only where to put them.

As for the superconductor breakthroughs, "relatively high"
temperatures are still on an order of -200 deg. C, making
large scale experiments a lot more practical in the ambient
conditions of space. In the CCCS book, the increasing
precision and sophistication of the formations over the
years indicates progressive refinement of the technology.

[more in reply]


#: 45730 S7/Extraterrestrials?
30-Sep-91 23:53:39
Sb: #45727-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)

the effect is discussed in depth. I do remember that there
was discussion of the effect at the time of the tests - Life
magazine had a story on it, and the West Coast and Oahu
papers also ran stories. The effect is discussed in
"Fundamentals Of Naval Weapons Systems", and the various
electronic packaging manuals have sections on it. Like a lot
of things, the information was out in the open, but you had
to know where to look. (Also, those of us working on such
things took them for granted - "Hey, that's *old* news.
<G>). EMP, BTW, is *only* apparent at a distance in high-
altitude bursts. Low altitude bursts dissipate the pulse
through ground coupling within a few 10's of miles. (The
distance also has a heck of a lot to do with the size of the
device. The higher yield the device, the more powerful the
EMP).
Tom G.

#: 17563 S3/General
30-Sep-91 08:09:29
Sb: #17529-Controversial new file
Fm: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob,

Your comments on the lunar laser detection experiment were
interesting. I had been under the impression that the
purpose of the experiment was to validate the accuracy of
lunar ranging in general. In any case, DETECTION of a
laser's reflection off the moon is a far cry from IMAGING a
doughnut shape on the ground, with sharp edges, isn't it?

ac


#: 17675 S3/General
01-Oct-91 03:03:16
Sb: #17563-Controversial new file
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764

This week's NATURE reports work supported by the US Dept of
Defense, starting in 1981, to focus a ground-based laser to
a pin-point ten miles above the surface of the earth. (This
to emulate a star's light, for focussing telescopes.) The
work was secret for ten years, and was partially de-
classified in May of this year.

Lasers can jiggle single atoms about; even from a great
height, a football field is a pretty large canvas, in
comparison.


#: 17668 S3/General
01-Oct-91 01:31:16
Sb: Controversial new file
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Allen Cobb [PRC] 72451,1764

Allen, to the best of my knowledge, the lunar laser
detections experiments had no (disclosed) relationship to
SDI. That its success may have confirmed for some the
possibilities, and thus helped to launch it, is unknowable
(yet). That was back in the early '70's.

The reflectors left on the moon were formed to compensate
for spreading over that great distance, and in that respect
resembled extremely long focal-length reflectors not unlike
telescope mirrors. What was ascertained was that a laser
could be aimed from earth, reach the moon adequately
collimated to access the reflector, and return through the
atmosphere and be seen.

I never meant to infer that this related directly to crop
imaging from a much more advanced technology than that, from
a source only 25,000 miles away, as opposed to the
earth-moon round trip of 476,000 miles. The example was
cited to demonstrate the length of time research has been
going on.

Essentially, CIRCLE.TXT explores the idea that
masers/lasers/whatevers, of power outputs and collimating
efficiencies using enhanced superconductive technologies not
yet stated, are able to create artifactual images through a
stencil, from a geosynchronous orbiter(s), much like a
"cookie cutter."

Bob

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45731 S7/Extraterrestrials?
01-Oct-91 01:07:11
Sb: #45727-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)

Tom, thanks for the generous addendum to your prior on EMP.
(I got the reply, too). Most of the publicity on EMP I've
seen had to do with gamma effects - to with a random cosmic
ray momentarily zapping a logic gate in some bank's
computer, resulting in a billing error. I know it's more
general than that, and I appreciate the organization you
offered. I was especially struck by your mention of other
potential beam scenarios such as X-Ray and IR. I'd
entertained the notion of the latter, but left it out of the
discussion because of the many crop effects that occured
while under the surveillance of thermographic sensors and
light amplifiers. All that was seen was new circles in the
morning. I'd have presumed that thermography would have
shown an IR effect, though it may be a mistake to presume
anything at this point.

I was struck by your inference that gamma ray lasers have at
least been pondered, and may be theoretically possible.
I'll file that one.

I'd also like to add what a pleasure it is getting credible
information from one actively involved in related science.
My late father (a ham, K6JW) was a senior scientist on
Surveyor, at Hughes. He degugged the communications system,
hired based on his invention of a pulse-modulated AM
transmitter which reached (in 1957-8) the MARS station,
KC4USA, at McMurdo Sound using 20 watts input to final, from
Philadelphia. They didn't believe him, because his signal
strength was below noise level, but his intelligibility was
higher. I know what you mean about *old* news. When
Surveyor landed, he shrugged, knowing Apollo was only a
matter of time, and was already on his way to Mars. He was
"on" Voyager, and made it out of the Solar System.

Thanks again for the fascinating information.

Bob


#: 45732 S7/Extraterrestrials?
01-Oct-91 01:07:25
Sb: #45728-circle.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

(contined)

I'm presuming circular stencils, Jon. What makes pursuit of
the "cookie cutter" thread so compelling - whatever the
exact energy source - is the later, ever increasing
appearance of not just circles, but circles connected by
straight lined, in turn bisected at right angles, with
parallel liner formations alongside: and all perfectly
aligned with the natural furrows in the fields. Drift might
not be detectable in rectilinear formations in the form of
obvious distortion, as in a circle/ellipse effect.

They also make a compelling argument for the stencil theory.
In leafing through page after page of these things, one sees
the compound structures with linear elelents starting to
proliferate [not to mention the one called "the insect"
which looks exactly like an Anasazi petroglyph (Arizona) I
have in a Smithsonian catalogue of such things, printed in
the 1870's].

But the most striking resmblance of the compound circle/line
structures is their resemblance to *sighting reticules.* I
understand that crop circle events are proliferating
elsewehere in the world. It's interesting to speculate if
the preliminary sighting, collimating, and power control
systems done in Wiltshire have reached a point where it is
now necessary to move on to other areas.

If the mythology of Britain were the first cover, recent
documentaries on UFO's in S.E. British airbases
("Unexplained Mysteries") which included active duty
personnel - hitherto inconceivable - might not mean that the
Military is priming a new confounder. "Give it to the
UFOlogists now..."

Bob


#: 45733 S7/Extraterrestrials?
01-Oct-91 01:07:39
Sb: #45729-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

(contined)

Erik, I wanted to comment on the relative obscurity of the
archeology of the Plains of Wiltshire. Albert Watkins work
on the ley lines, from the 20's, and the more "academically
accepted" work of such scientists as Alexander Thom, Gerald
Hawkins, and others - are widely published and seriously
studied here. Especially since the new respectability of
"ArcheoAstronomy," and its adoption and accreditation by a
number of pretty "straight" asronomers. Even the late nobel
laureate, Richard Feynman was interested.

There are hundreds of books in print on the subject. Just
as "space travel" was relegated to the science fiction book
shelves until Neil Armstrong made the discussion respectable
by "doing it," so it was with the standing stones and
circular mounds and more sophisticated structures such as
Stonehenge, Men Antol, Maes Howe (Orkneys), Avebury,
Glastonbury, and the demonstration (as opposed to theory),
that alignments had geodetic and astronomical significance.

In Chaco Canyon, Arizona, for example, these same
researchers are now discovering the same functions in
hitherto obscure structures and enigmatic petroglyphs.
There is considerable interest.

One can only imagine the effect in England itself, with
writers such as Jon Michel and others popularizing the
subject over the year - with Ley Line Societies debating in
print... with a sub rosa national obsession over the truly
fascinating reality of what has been in place for over 4000
years... What a fabulous cover! It makes the rules of
evidence unmanageable.

Bob


#: 45751 S7/Extraterrestrials?
01-Oct-91 22:16:40
Sb: #circle.txt
Fm: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312
To: 71251,2445 (X)

Bob,

My only point about the elliptical shape was that if you
fire a circle the image is elliptical due to the angle of
incidence and curvature of the earth. If the aspect and
orientation were consistent, it would be a pretty strong
piece of evidence for a stationary platform in space.

Another aspect of the phenomenon to consider is how the
stalks fall. Not only do they swirl both clockwise and
counter, they also have been known to fall all in the same
direction. In one circle, there was a small central swirl
and the stalks in each quadrant fell in the same direction
at right angles to those in adjacent quadrants. In still
other cases, they all fell directly centrifugally. These
and other idiosyncratic (for want of a better word)
behaviors make SDI a less than viable hypothesis.

Some have used the term conspiracy to characterize your
conjecture. I don't see that has the right connotation for
one or two governments testing weapons systems. That is
what they are supposed to do. I love the mindset
demonstrated by Erik when he suggested defense bureaucrats
lack imagination and guts. Military Intelligence is not an
oxymoron as the joke goes. Military types may have
different goals than the average civilian type and use all
sorts of means to gain them, and they would just as soon
have you underestimate their abilities. It makes their job
easier.

Jon Brunson

There are 3 Replies.


#: 45753 S7/Extraterrestrials?
02-Oct-91 04:20:49
Sb: #45751-circle.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312

There has been a fair amount of work done on the circles,
hoping to explain them by freak weather conditions and so
forth. In the published papers, the scientists say that the
patterns could be formed by ionized cushions of air. In
fact part of their problem was to figure out how even
anomalous weather patterns could be configured to do the
same thing that lasers would do in creating the cushions and
the ionized atmosphere. The Japanese scientist who
evidently did reproduce the strange patterns did so using a
laser over (I forget which) metallic or semi-metallic
substance.

This is all talked about in circle.txt. What should be
emphasized is that the lasers (if they exist) are not
cutting the crops directly (as lasers are wont to do in
movies about bank heists); they are ionizing the atmosphere,
creating a "microclimate", and it is this that bends the
stalks in a certain way according to the dynamics of the air
pocket, that creates a sporadic light show, and brings
reports of electromagnetic disturbances.


#: 45754 S7/Extraterrestrials?
02-Oct-91 06:01:55
Sb: #45751-circle.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312

Thanks for the clarification of your question regarding
"elliptical," Jon. It actually makes an answer to the
question simpler to state. If I were conducting what I
believe to be preliminary refinements - targeting,
stability, energy emission control, beam spread... I would
feel silly (as I sort of do) for not having also factored in
the curvature of the earth as a distorting element. Yes,
that could certainly be a factor, except that it would be a
radial effect, resulting in a slightly wider circle.

Angle of incidence is another story, but I would hope that
great effort would go into acheiving a perfect vertical.
That still leaves drift, and not very much at that. I find
it hard to imagine a stationary satellite at 25,000 miles
which would be *perfectly* stationary, and all things
considered, the degree of ellipticality (?) is small enough
to suggest relatively great stability. The obvious way to
achieve this is through the gyroscopic effects (precession-
compensated) of rapid spin.

It's admittedly a leap to the notion that the spinning beam
(behind a contra-rotating stencil) might in some way cause
the patterns of layover, but we are still after all, in the
brainstorming stage and don't claim to have all the answers.
I'm sure there are many secrets out there.

I've also seen pictures of the really radical patterns you
mention. I don't have the answer to all the specifics, but
I don't think the remaining enigmas are enough to (yet)
dismiss the overall scenarios. We have a superstructure
that's conceivable. We may be a long way from dotting the
"i"'s. From what I know of how secrets are kept, we all may
be startled by the effects manifested by the technology
itself. Conspiracy and underestimated abilities ahead.


#: 45755 S7/Extraterrestrials?
02-Oct-91 06:02:11
Sb: #45751-circle.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312

I think that the term "conspiracy" in this context is a _non
sequitur_. I've been involved enough in serious research
into assassination conspiracy to know that the term can be a
red herring. With few exceptions I've found "lone assassin"
conclusions to be manifestations of the collective denial of
something that's "too bad to be true," and therefore
processed by the brain into invisibility, to keep anxiety
threshholds tenable. As the denial begins to weaken there is
perceived a second conspiracy to conceal the first
conspiracy, when in fact the second conspiracy is often the
clinical denial of the first one, seen in retrospect. I find
hope in that... Maybe truth is immortal after all. It just
takes getting used to.

"Conspiracy" connotes a clinical mindest suggestive of
paranoia, always a convenience when needed. I agree, Jon,
that the testing of weapons can require a great deal of
coordination among the participants to hide the pattern
produced if the elements are allowed to connect. The
security structure of the Manhattan Project is a classic
example.

I also enjoyed Erik's citation of "imagination and guts."
Whoever put this number together had to be amply endowed
with both. I even see a sense of humor at work in the
"Arizona petroglyph."

So where does conspiracy end an symbiosis leave off. Take
the lowly termite. Each termite is a conspiracy all its
own, its G.I. tract being a safe house for a protozoa,
complete with room and board. The termite grinds up the
wood like a food processor so the protozoa (a
dinoflagellate, I think) can ingest it, and the termite
assimilates the nutrient wastes and byproducts that
result.

Top level Military and industrial security is something
else. Bob.


#: 45760 S7/Extraterrestrials?
02-Oct-91 18:26:44
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: JON BRUNSON 76477,1312

Joe, it was not my intention to take impugn any aspect of
the military intelligence community. However, I see how my
remark might have left such an impression. The point I was
making was this; in order to give credence to the SDI theory
being discussed here, one has to imbue SDI project managers
with a combination of characteristics (knowledge of group
psychology, history, a LARGE dose of chutzpah, just to name
a few) that, to my knowledge (admittedly not comprehensive)
have not been similarly demonstrated in other projects.

Unless I missed it, I have yet to see any discussion
regarding why all the circles are formed at night. Is it
possible that sunlight interferes with the process, or does
selection of Wiltshire as a proving ground require after
dark testing in order to avoid the possibility that the
cicrle formation will be directly witnessed? If the latter,
then the selection of this location would certainly seem to
impose a significant handicap to R&D activities unless you
assume (rather unlikely I would think) that direct daylight
observation of the process adds nothing significant to the
testing.


There is 1 Reply.



#: 45795 S7/Extraterrestrials?
03-Oct-91 21:36:32
Sb: #45583-Crop circles
Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

I downloaded that file and I found it interesting. You're
right -- there are a lot of ideas discussed there that don't
show up elsewhere for some reason.


#: 45798 S7/Extraterrestrials?
04-Oct-91 00:37:38
Sb: #45795-Crop circles
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335

I'm glad you read it. Really, the only thing that I'm
trying to push is a search for the truth -- wherever that
leads. I've no emotional investment in one solution over
another -- or rather the one solution I'm wedded to is the

right< one. What was presented in that thread -- and what

information has been garnered since that thread -- still
suggest that the crop circles are, in large measure, the
result of military/intelligence laser/maser testing from
geosynchronous satellites in place over Britain.

The presence of experts in allied fields is the reason for
pushing the matter here. I hope others will take down the
thread and read it through.


#: 45823 S7/Extraterrestrials?
04-Oct-91 20:22:41
Sb: #CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

What was presented in that thread -- and what information

has been garnered since that thread -- still suggest that
the crop circles are, in large measure, the result of
military/intelligence laser/maser testing from
geosynchronous satellites in place over Britain.<<

It strikes me that the evidence presented in CIRCLE.txt and
subsequent discussions can, at best, be described as
suggesting only that SDI testing is a theory that appears to
address more aspects of the phenomena than ony other.
Considering the wackiness of most of the other theories,
that's not really saying much. Interesting for sure, but a
whole lot of holes yet to be filled!

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45833 S7/Extraterrestrials?
05-Oct-91 03:58:42
Sb: #45823-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Absolutely. It is only a suggestion. But I hear that the
two men who confessed were asked point blank on a television
interview if they had ever been employed by an intelligence
organization, and they didn't give a straight answer. That,
also, the "news organization" which controls them and their
story doesn't not actually have a telephone number, and its
only address is through its accounting firm. That the USDoD
releases the information that it has been working with
ground-to-air laser focussing systems since 1981. That for
the first time the USDoD allowed members of the military to
appear on camera to talk about UFOs, and actually played up
the possibility that there are strange things happening in
the skies over south-Eastern England. The announcement last
week that the DoD was going to be putting its own smaller
satellites into orbit, and not rely on NASA, which is too
public and too unreliable. And so on. Such scattered
notes fit and enhance one scenario, and they do not fit any
other.

It's a far too complicated matter for anyone to claim
certainty. But I don't go back on my simple point: since
the thread has ended, it has grown easier to accept this
explanation, and only more difficult to accept any other.
(And in any case, it's not half so tortured as what
Astrophysicists are having to do to shore up red-shift as
purely a cosmological factor, and directly and only related
to distance.)


#: 45837 S7/Extraterrestrials?
05-Oct-91 06:11:07
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

If you start with the assumption that all big secrets
ultimately get leaked, (and the parameters of this one make
it a great candidate for ultimate "leaking"), then the DoD
is setting itself up for some bigtime embarrasment down the
road. If they are smart enough to pull this off, they are
certainly smart enough to recognize that it won't be a
secret forever. How will they explain the duplicity? or are
you suggesting that they really don't care?


#: 45844 S7/Extraterrestrials?
05-Oct-91 07:59:08
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

But I don't go back on my simple point: since the thread

has ended, it has grown easier to accept this explanation,
and only more difficult to accept any other.<<

In reading my prior message I realized I didn't address this
comment. Just wanted you to know that I agree totally with
this statement. Unfortunately, the *competing* theories,
being so relatively lightweight, provide a very poor
benchmark against which to make comparisons.


#: 45849 S7/Extraterrestrials?
05-Oct-91 10:11:27
Sb: CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X)

Erik, thanks for permission to send this private exchange we
had when I responded to your #45760 to Jon Brunson regarding
secrecy and day/night testing, and assorted items.

Before I became a freelance writer in the entertainment
industry (including credits in "Star Trek: Both
Generations," and also a lot of Earth stuff) I worked in a
division of RAND, in Santa Monica, as a Dept. Editor, and
was very involved in who got to know what. The SDI stuff
we're brainstorming would have been strictly Top Secret (I
only held Secret), and on an ironclad "need-to-know" basis.
Most of the people working on it would have no idea of the
nature of the goal - only the component(s) in which they
were involved - much like during the development of the A-
bomb. Project Managers wouldn't have come under this
category. SDI may be among the most sensitive projects
since then, if it is in fact a disinforming title.

The group psychology and history could very well have come
from a Think Tank such as RAND, the product of a very few
specialists under NSA level security. That's heavy duty
*tight.* The chutzpah was in the funding of it, as it was
publicly described as something which couldn't work. And
now, in Bush's latest speeches on disarmament, he openly
speaks of rediverting some of the newly freed funds to SDI.
That is clearly chutzpah. There are other, even more
cockamamey projects that must have required even more of the
same in the selling.

Anyway, on to night/day testing.


#: 45852 S7/Extraterrestrials?
05-Oct-91 10:21:21
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

You noted something which hasn't been discussed and should
have been - the day versus night testing. Accuracy over the
25,000 mile distance we're talking about would be
unpredictable altered by a daytime sky - if only by the
gravitational effects of the sun in bending light and other
radiations - the demonstration of which was one of the early
supports for Relativity.

Another argument for night testing is the diminished chance
of a field being occupied at the time of exposure. Another
is that if laser-dot hot spots are used for sighting and
alignment, these would be much more effective at night. Yet
another is that R&D would be concerned mainly with the
effect, not the process. Night would give cover for an
effect that may take hours to complete. It would also make
the recording of sonic effects easier.

And, a big unknown is the time lag between exposure and
effect, if any. As for R&D activities in general, I think we
can presume that the formation process itself would have
been thoroughly studied in smaller scales, as indicated by
the various experiments cited my Michael McDowell in other
messages.

Your questions were good ones.

Bob


#: 45853 S7/Extraterrestrials?
05-Oct-91 10:21:36
Sb: CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Bob, your exposure to the people involved in these types of
projects clearly gives your opinion some credibility
regarding their capability to both invent and successfully
execute something this remarkable. I can only defer to your
judgement in that regard. Yet.......10 years is an awfully
long time for our government to keep anything truly secret.
Especially something that would have so many of its
participants quietly smirking at the great joke they were
playing on the world press. You have have referred to the
Manhattan Project several times and I am aware of the
remarkable secrecy that was enforced. But times have
changed dramatically since then and I suspect that similar
efforts today would be considerably less successful.

Accuracy over the 25,000 mile distance we're talking about

would be unpredictably altered by a daytime sky - if only by
the gravitational effects of the sun in bending light and
other radiations<<

Some of your other speculations for night circle formations
are persuasive, but this one needs a little more support.
For instance, it suggests that all the crop circles are
formed only when the satellite is in the earth's shadow. I
don't know what period of time a geosynchronous satellite
would be in the earth's shadow, but if this is a requirement
for accuracy, the project has a *long* way to go before it
results in any significant defensive capability. Same is
true if the process takes hours to complete. Why spend
millions putting up a space weapon platform that, after 10
years of testing, requires hours to achieve the desired
effect? Seems to me that we wouldn't put it up until we had
largely overcome that difficulty.


#: 45854 S7/Extraterrestrials?
05-Oct-91 10:21:41
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

An additional issue I have yet to see addressed by this
theory is the obvious problem of what becomes of the testing
program when the "crop season" ends in Wiltshire. Just call
it a day and wait for next spring? Obviously not, yet no one
(at least none that I can recall) has put forth a theory as
to what testing alternatives go into effect in the fall and
winter. Your thoughts?


#: 45859 S7/Extraterrestrials?
05-Oct-91 12:00:33
Sb: CIRCLE.EXE
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X)

Erik, I clearly have a lot to learn about the /split
commnad... This is in response to # 45853-4, your response
to my # 45851-2 (whatever the headers say.) They started out
private. Sorry about the chaos.

I think I'm being read as suggesting a much more developed
stage of technology than we have actually reached. If my
theory is correct, I think that what we're seeing is the
very early stages of developing of something that may not
mature until the next century. Michael McDowell has cited
some of the experiments on laboratory scale, and I see
geosynchronous orbiter tests as a natural next step. I
think we're seeing the refinement of fundamental techniques,
not fully developed systems. I see fine tuning of prototype
technology, collimating methods, focussing - and even
learning to compensate for natural effects (such as gravity
bending and surface sphericity) at low levels of energy
compared to what it might lead to.

I also see a natural evolution of the application of known
technologies to defense systems (hopefully) and other
applications. In my own mind what I'm doing is
extrapolating that which already exists and amplifying it
forward in time. The smart bombs demonstrated in Iraq were
certainly mind-blowers, given the relatively primitive toys
which the previous generation of guided missiles used -
which was awesome when it appeared. Nothing has been put
forth here based on a technology which doesn't in fact
already exist. We have put not millions, but billions into
it, and if we can make complex patterns in a field from a
sattelite, 10 years is a few minutes, having started with
simple lab experiments.


#: 45860 S7/Extraterrestrials?
05-Oct-91 12:00:46
Sb: #CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576 (X)

So what I'm saying is essentially in agreement with you,
Eric. It does indeed have a long way to go, but the signs
exist to anticipate what's coming. As to the completion
time of the process, I suspect that the actual exposure time
is quite short. I have no idea how long the effect takes to
become completed. Given the normal exponential acceleration
of development of such things as we're imagining (literally,
I'm sure many believe) we only have a glimmer of the
possibilities. If there is a geosynchronous sattelite over
England, I'd be surprised if it was more than an early
prototype of a technology that may not even have a name yet.

The question in your last, "what happens when the crop
season ends in England," is, according to the latest
reports, answering itself. There has been a tremendous
proliferation of clustered events in other parts of the
world - including Japanese rice fields. I don't know when
they harvest rice, but it's happening. And as was noted in
some priors, we're being handed Air Force UFO stories now,
as though the Metaphysical cover is about to be handed to
the UFOlogists, so that other sites can be visited openly.

Given the proliferation of other current sites, I'd say the
testing alternatives for fall and winter are already being
tuned up, if not operating.

Bob


There is 1 Reply.


#: 45884 S7/Extraterrestrials?
06-Oct-91 02:41:05
Sb: #45837-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

I don't start with the assumption that all big secrets
ultimately get leaked. Or, rather, even if they do, the
truth is not always universally accepted.

In general, the higher you go in any chain of command,
whether in corporate America, the White House, the Military,
Hollywood studios, or the Boy Scouts of America --
decisions can be (and very often are) made for trivial
reasons, that usually have to do with personal ego, and
rarely with the ultimate good of an organization. It's only
rarely possible to trace these things back. Which is to
say, I don't know why the military, or intelligence, or
whatever is working the way they are (if indeed they are
involved at all in the crop circles). I can imagine,
however, that allowing the UFO incident in the early 80s in
se England to have the participation of military personnel
was an attempt to confuse the crop circle business even
further. (The show also included mock-ups of purported
ships, and the light effects were suggested; it is possible
that these were deliberately slanted away from the actual
effects, a case of image disinformation.)

By the way, I do not consider the above evidence of
anything. But if the military do have somewhat to do with
the crop circles, then the above makes sense of an abrupt
and apparently unique departure of practice by the military.
I like theories which explain other phenomena, more than I
like theories that have to be altered in order to fit other
phenomena.


There is 1 Reply.


#: 45885 S7/Extraterrestrials?
06-Oct-91 02:47:01
Sb: #45854-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

I read that the two gentlemen who confessed to the crop
circles, tried to produce another in daylight and before
witnesses. But its quality was distinctly below par. They
blamed this on the fact that it was so near to harvest.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45886 S7/Extraterrestrials?
06-Oct-91 03:03:40
Sb: #45852-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Bob:

Maybe you or someone else here can look at the 12 Sept 91
issue of Nature, and see if the discussions there bear more
than the obvious relevance to what we're talking about.
There's even a photograph (oddly fake-looking) of a laser
beaming up to a point in the atmosphere. They discuss
making pin-point of light at heights of 1 K, and then also
at 80-100K.

The News and Views article talks about the secret military
testing of laser optics through the atmosphere, which was
only partially de-classified a few months ago. The two
articles themselves give detailed explanations of
experiments partially based on the military work as applied
to telescopes. I don't have the knowledge to figure this
out. Primmerman et al.'s work was supported by the Defense
Advanced Research Projects Agency, the Strategic Defense
Initiative Organization and the Army Strategic Defense
Command. The Lincoln Lab (MIT) scientists worked out of the
Mt Haleakala telescope and beam director on Maui.


#: 45887 S7/Extraterrestrials?
06-Oct-91 06:15:10
Sb: #45886-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Thanks for the tip on the Nature article, Michael. Among
the times that try persons' souls is when they let the wrong
subscription lapse. Like, I need Conde Nast right now.

The reason for the classification of military
laser/telescope technology may have been due to its use in
the Stealth fighter in hot-spotting Cruise missile targets.
With current disclosures about the Stealth's (relatively)
high visibility to "pulsed" low frequency radar. There may
be a need to loosen "need-to-know" (the usual reason for
diminished classification) to preserve or increase funding
in that specific area. On the other hand...

The telescope research is especially intriguing, as the
curvature of the mirror (presuming reflectors) must be a
super-precise parabola (as opposed to circle or ellipse) to
focus all the visible wavelengths to a white spot. As a
childhood amateur telescope maker, I remember the anguish of
chromatic abberation if it wasn't just right. When you
start talking about the ranges you describe, and the funding
agencies, It's certainly suggestive - not of answers so much
as new questions. I'll follow up on the references. Thanks.

Bob


#: 45888 S7/Extraterrestrials?
06-Oct-91 06:15:17
Sb: #45885-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Michael, has anybody yet tried faking one of the straight
line formations connecting circles, complete with parallel,
unconnected bars, (the ones that look so much like sighting
reticules) without leaving a trace of their traverse to or
from the sight?

Do they use stilts, or what? I once had a Chevvie that
cornered like stilts...

In all fairness, I'm sure some of the formations are
fakes... Uh, I wonder how one fakes a circle in a rice
paddy. They're in the Orient, now.

Bob


#: 45889 S7/Extraterrestrials?
06-Oct-91 07:21:37
Sb: #45884-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Michael, I cannot take issue with anything you said. The
recent willingness of the military establishment to
participate in UFO discussions is indeed a curious turn of
events.

In any event, if the military is responsible for crop circle
formation, some person or group of people is coordinating
the various aspects of the program. Can you or Bob cite any
historical precedent for a military disinformation campaign
(in modern history) that reached so deeply into pop culture?
Is it possible that the dimensions of this campaign are so
wide as to overreach itself and thus guarantee that people
such as yourself will take note and try to strip the covers
off?


There is 1 Reply.


#: 45890 S7/Extraterrestrials?
06-Oct-91 07:21:48
Sb: #45860-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

If there is a geosynchronous sattelite over England, I'd

be surprised if it was more than an early prototype of a
technology that may not even have a name yet.<<

Bob, would seem that under the discussed scenario the
question is not "if" but "how many". Unless geosynchronous
satellites have a helluva lot more maneuverability than I
ever expected. Where is/are it/they? Over Britain, Japan,
Australia? And assuming your explanation to be correct,
that's great for this year if the other sightings do turn
out to be legit. But what about prior years when the whole
phenomena evaporated at the end of September?

Please don't misinterpret my queries as anything more than
an effort to facilitate the fleshing out of a theory that
remains the best explanation I've yet heard for the origin
of crop circles. So far you are doing a splendid job.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45920 S7/Extraterrestrials?
06-Oct-91 16:52:57
Sb: #45889-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

Any historical precedent?

A disinformation campaign about the dangers of nuclear
radiation. It continues today. Nobody's dying, nobody
died. Nobody's sick, nobody ever got sick except a little
nausea.

And, I also remember, a few years in there when we were not
bombing Laos, and no planes were flying over Cambodia, and
even today, the CIA still doesn't get any money from poppies
in the poppy fields of those beleaguered lands. I believe
there are still a few Big Deals that we don't know about
Vietnam, mostly the getting-in part -- and if I'm right,
there's a second fiction the military has maintained for
over ten years.


#: 45949 S7/Extraterrestrials?
07-Oct-91 06:46:16
Sb: #45890-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Eric, your queries are terrific! The whole purpose of this
is to literally brainstorm the Q's and A's from different
perspectives, that will fill in a "most credible possible
scenario." I was very pleased by your compliment, and thank
you for it. If I'm giving good answers, it's because I'm
getting quality questions.

The question, having come this far with the line of inquiry,
is indeed *how many,* and not *if.* I hope I can get the
/split command right, because I need to lay out some stuff
about geosynchronous sattelites. If you already know the
fundamentals, forgive me, but other readers may not know. A
geosynchronous sattelite is one that maintains a fixed
position over a point on the earth. It does this by
maintaining an altitude high enough so that orbital velocity
is the same as the speed of the rotation of the earth below
it - the required altitude is about 25,000 miles.

They can be launched as the payload of a conventional
booster, or deployed from a Shuttle - the super-secret
missions of which date back to around the time Wiltshire
began having its "experience." One is simply released from
the cargo bay, and propelled upward to synchronous altitude
with it's own propulsion system. If payload requirements
allow the necessary systems and fuel, they can also be
retrieved by lowering them with ground control commands to a
decaying orbit, followed by a rendezvous with a Shuttle,
which can retrieve it, bring it home, repair it, refuel it,
even redeploy it. (The Hubble Telescope is due for a repair,
when "other priorities" are out of the way.)

(Networking and other stuff follows)

[More]


#: 45950 S7/Extraterrestrials?
07-Oct-91 06:46:29
Sb: #45949-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

The first geosynchronous satellites (GS's for short) were
Intelligence gatherers, but at the turn of the '80's became
better known for their "sattelite weather pictures" on the
TV news. Before pilots could get the pictures directly,
they used to watch the 6:00 A.M. CNN news for them. It was
more informative than a weather briefing. More and more
GS's got deployed, and now the earth is pretty well covered.
There was a bad hole in the coverage, until recently, when
one of the Pacific GS's went out.

More recently, a network of them was deployed to furnish
global navigation servcices to ships at sea, and aircraft,
and is performing superbly. Another was recently deployed as
a communication link for Shuttles, to relay communications
when the Shuttle was out of range of a ground station.
Always a dangerous time. So, "how many" is a given. I
don't know how many in close proximity it requires to "do a
Wiltshire," but clusters would be simple. And yes, they
have considerable local maneuverability. Using on board
thrusters, small changes in altitude would result in lateral
movement, aided by directional thrusters. If we could
control a soft lunar lander (Surveyor, on which my father
was a Senior Scientist) in the early '60's, precisely
maneuvering a GS at a fraction of that distance is no big
deal.

I would presume that the number has proliferated
considerably, and that the ones were talking about are
networked. (I'll be back in a few minutes with an
interesting reference from the original upload,
CIRCLE.TXT...)

Bob


#: 45952 S7/Extraterrestrials?
07-Oct-91 07:23:13
Sb: CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576

Eric, following up on my prior about sattelite positioning,
I went to extract something that Michael McDowell had
contributed to CIRCLE.TXT, in his message #888 therein. We
had been discussing what was controversial, in England, of
the disposition of Castle Herstmonceaux, a prior site of the
Royal Greenwich Observatory. It's in the area of crop
circle activity. Countering a bit of disinformation that the
telescopes there were no longer in use, a correspondent
Englishman on CompuServe wrote:

"The Satellite Laser Ranger scope at Herstmonceaux is still
used by the RGO [Royal Greenwich Observatory] for measuring
orbits of artificial sattelites, for measuring precise
earth-rotation parameters..."

Michael also noted in that message, since confirmed, that in
the 1991 season crop circles have spread across Europe, with
"notable formations appearing in Sweden, near Wiesbaden and
near Cologne in Germany, in the Netherlands, in Italy, in
Bulgaria, In Yugoslavia, and in Siberia. About three dozen
have been formed in Japan."

Bob


There is 1 Reply.


#: 45953 S7/Extraterrestrials?
07-Oct-91 08:24:21
Sb: #45920-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

Michael, I wanted to add a bit to the list of disinformation
campains, though in some cases the disinformation was
intended not for the pop culture, but for its elected
leaders. (I also want to apologize for ripping off your
stuff about Castle Herstmonceaux in a prior to eric, and
signing my name twice on something. At least I've mastered
/split.)

Since Lincoln's time, with the help of General McClellan's
private secret service under Alan Pinkerton, disinformation
of presidents in service to the private agendas of other
power bases and, sometimes, commercial interests has been
routine. More recently, it was done to Roosevelt, Truman,
Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Carter, and Reagan. Bush's
roots speak for themselves. Without turning this political
and coming off as the flaming radical which I am not, the
Eisenhower disinformation left a legacy which still lives,
and it all turns on a word, and a suitable beginning is
Iran.

Early in the McCarthy period, one did not challenge the use
of the word "communism" in expressing something to shoot at.
I know in the '50's, I didn't. Given the Korean War,
Hungary, and all the rest, one could be very anti-communist
and be a flaming liberal in domestic affairs, all at the
same time. That pretty well describes me, nobody could be
more pleased at the recent turns in world politics viz a viz
democratization than me. That unequivocally said, when
Mossadegh tried to nationalize Iran's oil,('50's) Eisenhower
was persuaded this was communism in action, and the CIA got
its first shot at deposing heads of state. We installed the
Shah and trained his secret police, the Sadak. It gets
better...


[More]

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45954 S7/Extraterrestrials?
07-Oct-91 08:24:35
Sb: #45953-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

This was soon followed by the news that Arbenz, the leftist
president of Guatemala, was going to nationalize the
agronomy. The CIA went in and he was history. Another
communist down the tubes. Then along comes Castro to make a
deal with us - in which his nationalization of the United
Fruit Co. was the deal breaker that opened the Cuban door to
Russia. At the time we were paying for sugar at a rate
determined by a 1903 treaty, and United Fruit had a total
monopoly. Castro started in the Sierra Maestra of Oriente
province because the Fruit Co. owned *two thirds* of the
province outright, and he knew recruitment would be easy.
What the pop culture didn't know was that among the chief
attorneys, members of the board, a chairman of the board,
and the principal stockholders were John Foster Dulles (Sec.
of State), his brother Allen (head of CIA), Senator Henry
Cabot Lodge (whose father shot down the League of Nations),
Walter Bedell Smith, A couple of other Cabots and Lodges,
and three Latin American ambassadors, one of whom didn't
speak Spanish. So it was never about ideology, it was about
money, and we bought military dictatorships to protect it.
This legacy, as well as the Iranian void left by the
inevitable revolt against the Shah, filled by the
fundamentalists, still lives.

So does the disinformation of Johnson about the Gulf of
Tonkin, etc. It pervades us by the twisting of labels.
STAR Wars being really EARTH wars. Old hat. The
Intelligence Agencies even disinform each other in their
turf wars.

Anyway, back to Wiltshire!

Bob


#: 45989 S7/Extraterrestrials?
07-Oct-91 22:08:57
Sb: #45798-#Crop circles
Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Hmmmmm..... I just had a particularly bad idea.... Have
you heard about the mysterious deaths of technicians and
engineers in England in the past few years? Could there be
a connection? It's been suggested for a long time that
they're related to a MJ-12 sort of conspiracy, but maybe
they could be related to terrestrial defense research
instead.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 45990 S7/Extraterrestrials?
07-Oct-91 23:14:35
Sb: #45989-Crop circles
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335

I do know of the deaths. I had not connected them with the
crop circles, and I think I still don't. There was, or is,
a faltering attempt to connect each of the scientists to UFO
research, but I've not even seen a list of names of these
engineers and technicians.

If the deaths are related, the timing -- well before the
circles business had begun to escalate -- is off. I also
believe that agents of the British or the U.S. government
would dispose of dangerous elements in some way that was
less conspicuous than leaving a corpse tied to a table at
the bottom of a lake. Of course this makes me wonder if the
claim is true that all these deaths have been ruled
suicides...

This is one of those mysteries which, to me, doesn't fit in
with the CIRCLES hypothesis. I'd love to see more facts,
however, for the business is talked about in rather a
mythologizing way; where it's only helpful if somebody hauls
out lists and tables and clippings. It would be helpful,
in fact, to dispose of the deaths as a related phenomenon.
CIRCLES isn't going to be telling us what became of Charlie
Ross, and things only get confusing if we try to gather in
too much. I had been reluctant to suggest Herstmonceaux,
but now I'm glad I did. So if anyone knows enough to shoot
this down, or shore it up, tell
all.


#: 46006 S7/Extraterrestrials?
08-Oct-91 17:33:00
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

Michael, your message #45833 suggested that the two men who
confessed to the crop circle hoax acted in a manner
afterwards that suggested they were perhaps the unwitting
dupes of the DoD. If true it would suggest a remarkable
dichotomy in the level of sophistication between the
technical end of the project and the disinformation campaign
intended to keep it secret. The enlistment of those two
bumpkins by some shady arm of the intelligence community
reflects a level of amateurish clumsiness that makes one
wonder how the project could possibly have remained secret
this long. It seems totally out of character with the level
of sophistication that this thread has assumed is at work.

In the same message you comment on the USDoD recent release
of info relative to ground-to-air laser focussing systems.
Your comment suggests such releases of info is unusual. I
don't know what specific info you are referring to, but as a
long-term subscriber to Aviation Week, I see new SDI
articles on a weekly basis. That's not why I subscribe so I
generally don't read those particular articles in detail
but, on a weekly basis, they are reporting on particle beam
technology, space-based lasers, railgun technology, etc. So,
my question is this: what specific news has *recently* come
out of the defense establishment that adds something new to
the debate about crop circles?


#: 46007 S7/Extraterrestrials?
08-Oct-91 17:33:10
Sb: CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

Any historical precedent?

You cite 2 historical precedents for the existence of large-
scale disinformation campaigns sponsored by the defense
community. Even making the large assumption that they exist
as you believe them to, they are fairly small-scale and
narrowly focused productions in comparison to what this
thread is postulating. They were (are?) essentially little
more than passive "stonewalling" tactics to hide either a
mistake (fallout) or a politically embarrasing breach of
international protocol(Cambodia). Neither would seem to
provide strong evidence that the necessary mindset exists to
conceive and execute a disinformation campaign of the scale
that this thread addresses.


#: 46008 S7/Extraterrestrials?
08-Oct-91 17:33:30
Sb: #CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

To catch up on several points in your recent postings:
There are some aspects to the geosynchronous satellite
discussion that seem to me to require further refinement.

Firstly, such satellites would be a poor selection as a
weapons testing platform for any program that wants to
remain secret. Their deployment is eminently trackable if
only because of the long rocket firing necessary to get them
to the extremely high altitude necessary for a
geosynchronous orbit. I find the concept of a "stealthy"
geosynchronous satellite to be fairly remote. So, it's
ability to sit over UK for years and remain undiscovered
while performing nightly test firings just seems a little
farfetched. (No one has yet mentioned the necessity for the
"beams" to contain large amounts of energy but emit almost
no visible light!)

Secondly, the issue of what happens when the crop circle
"season" ends has not been adequately addressed. You
speculated that a multitude of geosynchronous satellites are
in orbit. Why put up more than one (much less establish a
network) if it does no more than replicate the same testing
over a different area? Geosynchronous satellites are
incredibly expensive due to the expense associated with
getting them into a 25,000 mile orbit. Putting up more than
one simply to perpetuate a disinformation campaign is a
stretch. Only a second generation testbed could possibly
justify that expense, and there is no evidence yet discussed
of any large breakthroughs in what these presumed satellites
are capable of doing. Why select a location (Wiltshire)
which provides only a seasonal testing ground? The marginal
maneuverability of a geosynchronous satellite precludes any
serious likelihood that the one speculated to be over
Britain could be rapidly moved into place over Australia or
Japan. We have great fuel limitations in

[continued in the reply]

There is 1 Reply.


#: 46009 S7/Extraterrestrials?
08-Oct-91 17:33:47
Sb: #46008-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (X)

[continued]
merely adjusting our current NOAA satellites to give proper
Atlantic Ocean coverage, let alone shifting them back and
forth on an intercontinental basis. Again, maybe 1991 will
be the year that the phenomena continues after the crop
season ends in Wiltshire. But what explains the absence of
fall and winter activity in prior years?

Thirdly, Michael noted the spread of crop circles to Sweden,
Italy, et al. Can you or Michael please reference the
source of this info. My ENS clipping folders haven't picked
up any such stories nor are any stories found in an online
search of UK newspapers as late as this afternoon.

Fourthly, your ruminations on the subject of cold war
disinformation campaigns are food for thought but they
address the crop circle phenomena in a tangential manner at
best. The interpretation of recent geopolitical events is a
topic on which you will never achieve any meaningful
consensus. (Spend some time in the Issues forum if you want
daily evidence of that!) Hence, butressing your crop
circle/SDI theory through their utilization probably does
more to muddy the water than clarify. It also provides
opportunities for readers who disagree with your perceived
political bent to question the credibility of all your prior
postings. Both you and Michael have referred to past
disinformation campaigns and those comments have been
informative. But neither of you has mentioned any campaign
focused solely on a weapons development issue that is a true
analog to the subject of this thread.

Sorry to be so long-winded here. Once I got going more and
more questions came
to mind.

PS: I may be misinformed (certainly wouldn't be the first
time), but I don't think Hubble is geosynchronous.


#: 46020 S7/Extraterrestrials?
08-Oct-91 22:04:57
Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576

I remeber noting one example of weapons system
disinformation, the Manhattan Project, but that was
dismissed as being out of date. In fact it's not. I have
an extensive collection of antique newspapers, starting with
the war between Charley Two and Cromwell in 1642, and on
through the 1980's, an a lot of stuff from WWII. Many
weapons system that took years to develop weren't known of
until they'd been successfully tested. Likewise nuclear
subs, missiles we still haven't been told exist, it goes on
and on.

If I could give you a more recent campaign of this magnitude
(which the others are not) I'd be on "60 Minutes" and not
here. You're asking for data I have no way of having. I
too read Aviation Week, and it also disinforms on occasion.
That's how they get away with printing the classified stuff
they do. One hand feeds the other. There's other stuff to
read, too. As to the other events for which you requested
documentation, I carefully put in quotes the statement, (I
hope, and if I didn't please insert them) that it was a
response from an English correspondent. I included them
because I had seen the same places mentioned (on a smaller
scale) in the foreign press, and discussed on short wave
commercial radio from other parts of the world, to which I
listen regularly. Crop circles are a global item.

The other point you addressed was the "visibility" of high
energy beams at night. Too many meteorological variables
keep this from being arguable - not to mention Tom
Genereaux's mention of other energy forms than optical or
microwave which might be involved. I wish I knew..

Bob


#: 46021 S7/Extraterrestrials?
08-Oct-91 22:38:31
Sb: #45990-Crop circles
Fm: Jim Shaffer Jr. 72750,2335
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

I haven't seen a list of names either, but there's
supposedly one at the back of Sydney Sheldon's new novel
"The Doomsday Conspiracy", which just happens to be about
silencing the witnesses to a UFO crash. (It seems Sheldon
is cashing in on the UFO craze. Except for the list of
names, though, I don't think it's an attempt at "fiction
based on the truth" like STrieber's "Roswell" and the very
controversial books by W. A. Harbinson. For one thing, the
crash takes place in Switzerland (never heard of one there)
and for another, the aliens are benevolent.)


#: 46028 S7/Extraterrestrials?
09-Oct-91 05:09:22
Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Frank Hentschel 75126,72
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

HST's orbit is nowhere near geosyncronous (mean altitude
~600 km, period 97 minutes).

-fjh


#: 46033 S7/Extraterrestrials?
09-Oct-91 07:53:56
Sb: #46028-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Frank Hentschel 75126,72

Thanks for the information, Frank. It corrects a general
misconception held here about its whereabouts. Would you
happen to know if that was its originally intended
operational orbit, or a holding orbit pending the scheduled
1993 repair mission? Would you also happen to know how its
stabilized on a celestial target, given that 97 minute
period? I'd be very grateful for any information you might
have about it. The people at JPL gave the impression that
it was quite maneuverable, and they originally wanted it
higher than that.

Bob


#: 92349 S14/News/Current Events
12-Oct-91 01:02:09
Sb: #92338-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

Michael, I thought you and Sheldon Cohen might enjoy the
following update, extracted from a CIS letter I received
last night. The correspondent is a resident of Wiltshire,
the site of the most publicized sitings, and is actively
engaged in the research.

It refers to a crop event near Barbury Castle, in August of
this year, one of the most spectacular to date.

"... The farmer in whose field it formed in the
second week of August has offered a reward of twenty
thousand pounds to anyone who can replicate it, the downside
is that if you cannot you pay him ten thousand pounds for
damage to his wheat field; so far there have been no takers.
The two characters, Doug & Dave, who claimed to be the
authors of all the formations have not taken up this offer
and are now being prosecuted by the farmers Union for damage
to crops much to everyone's amusement !"

I guess Time Magazine missed something...

Bob


#: 46142 S7/Extraterrestrials?
11-Oct-91 17:56:34
Sb: #46019-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Bob, glad to see your posting in the Astronomy forum. Maybe
we'll get some contributions from folks with the technical
expertise to address some of the issues that have been
raised. Reason I was browsing in that forum was that I had
earlier requested their expertise regarding the possibility
of recovering GS satellites. I posted a question asking
anyone if they were aware of a GS satellite ever being
recovered after insertion into GS orbit. Response follows:


Message: #92245, S/3 Satellite Observing
Date: Thu, Oct 10, 1991 4:57:09 AM
Subject: #92199-GS satellites
From: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576 (deletable)


No Eric, nobody has the OOMPH to send a manned capsule into
Clarke orbit. Certainly not the US. And although the CIA and
NSA people dont always speak up about what they know the
russians are doing , I think launching Soyuz capsules to
geostationary orbit with Energia would be obvious anyway.

Bob, I haven't forgotten your last message. Am still
mulling it over.

-Erik-


#: 92264 S3/Satellite Observing
10-Oct-91 15:47:56
Sb: #92245-GS satellites
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Tony Beresford 72726,3245 (X)

Tony, you confirmed what I already suspected. Thanks!


#: 92351 S3/Satellite Observing
12-Oct-91 02:02:51
Sb: #92264-GS satellites
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Erik, I'm pleased the discussion has departed the E.T.
section of SPACE and finally found it's way here. There is
also discussion on ASTRO/News/ Current Events.

When I suggested the possibility of geosynchronous satellite
(GS) retrieval, I never envisioned sending the Shuttle into
Clarke orbit, but rather bringing the GS down. I understand
from an unclassified source at JPL that this is possible. I
hope Tony Beresford or someone who believes differently will
comment.

Since geosynchronicity is a matching of GS period to the
rotation of the earth - this being altitude dependent - the
scenario with which I was presented involved "goosing" the
GS downward into a controllable decaying orbit, and
rendezvousing a Shuttle with it at a lower altitude - on the
order of 600-800 km. I'm informed that Hubble is at 600
km., 97 min. period, for just that purpose.

Payload accommodation for fuel, thrusters, and control
systems might be considerable to enable recoverability, but
as I understand it this capability (or its development) is
part of the program and has been for some time. If it's
been done, nobody's talking.

Corrections are welcome. This isn't about being right, but
rather finding out what is.

Bob


#: 92355 S3/Satellite Observing
12-Oct-91 06:31:40
Sb: #92348-GS satellites
Fm: John McDonnell 73437,3202
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

It is certainly possible to build-in retrieval capability
for a GEO satellite; there simply isn't generally a need.
For example, a geosynchronous communications satellite which
has worn out generally isn't worth fixing anyway (i.e. not
worth the cost, loss of payload, etc.)


#: 92374 S3/Satellite Observing
12-Oct-91 21:39:13
Sb: #92348-GS satellites
Fm: Tony Beresford 72726,3245
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

I rather think the required payload of rocket would reduce
useful payload to a very small amount. Consider that the
scenario you are suggesting is equivalent to the velocity
increment given by the third stage and the circularising
burn to get to Clarke Orbit. An ion motor solution seems
most reasonable but there are no flight ready electric
propulsion systems in use.


#: 92386 S3/Satellite Observing
13-Oct-91 00:52:27
Sb: #92355-GS satellites
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: John McDonnell 73437,3202

Thanks for the response, John. The origin of the inquiry
related to the thread concerning a "special circumstance"
scenario. This is laid out in the CIRCLE.TXT thread, which
speculates (among other things) that the "crop events" in
Wiltshire, England, and elsewhere, are (among other things)
the artifacts of preliminary SDI experiments employing
laser/maser/other technology originating in GEO satellites
over the affected sites. As opposed to a comsat, landsat,
navigational device, or weather satellite, a need for
retrievability and redeployment can be envisioned.

Answer we needed was whether it could be done at all. If it
is SDI under a brilliant cover (the obfuscating nature of
the site), and under an inverted title (Earth as opposed to
Star), many puzzles fall into place. Also, budget becomes
unlimited, and the only remaining question on the particular
point becomes conceivability of the concept of GEO access.

Thanks again.

Bob


#: 46157 S7/Extraterrestrials?
12-Oct-91 00:25:06
Sb: #46142-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Thanks for redirecting me, Erik. It's much appreciated. I
responded to your exchange with Tony Beresford over on
ASTRO/SATTELITE OBSERVING. I'm grateful to you for the
referral. For thread readers here, those are the places to
look for continued activity.

So as not to leave anyone hanging, my query about retrieving
GS's was in the context of goosing the GS down to a lower
orbit, not sending the Shuttle up to get it.

See you on ASTRO.

Bob


#: 46158 S7/Extraterrestrials?
12-Oct-91 00:25:11
Sb: #46142-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Almost forgot... re that last message you're mulling over,
I'll look for a response here, or the thread might get
scattered all over the place. Thanks again for keeping me
current as to where the action is.

Bob


#: 92651 S3/Satellite Observing
18-Oct-91 19:15:30
Sb: CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob, got a little distracted with political events the past
week. Talk about a conspiracy!

Anyway, I've enjoyed our past discussions of crop circles as
possible artifacts of SDI testing. The Fox television
network aired a special program tonite entitled "The UFO
Report: Sightings". It contained a segment on crop circles.
Not surprisingly, it focused on them as almost certainly
related to UFO activity. The best part was some great aerial
photos of the more recent "pictogram" formations. I'm not
sure why, but those dramatic photos never fail to get the
juices running! Seldom does an unexplained phenomena
display itself in such a flagrant "I dare you to figure me
out" manner.

The failure of the Fox show to make any reference to the
possible high-tech human origins of crop circles just gives
me more confidence that SDI testing is the most likely
explanation. Why look for extraterrestrial explanations
when much more prosaic explanations remain to be
investigated? I confess that I remain highly skeptical that
GS satellites are involved. Also, some aspects of the
alleged disinformation campaign that we previously discussed
strike me as fairly remote. However, your prior comment
that noted the crop circle patterns resemblance to
sighting/aiming reticules strikes me as the single most
insightful observation yet made regarding their possible
origin.

The aforementioned Fox show also claimed that circles were
showing up in Japan, Canada and elsewhere. Sure wish I
could get some "hard" news to confirm those claims. The
spread of genuine "Wiltshire type" circles to other parts of
the globe would be a fascinating development.


#: 92582 S14/News/Current Events
17-Oct-91 12:19:54
Sb: #92262-#CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Stuart Lees 75300,247
To: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327 (X)

<Their biggest problem weas that for a long time no one
noticed their circles.>

The local TV station in the West of England (includes
Wiltshire) has been giving coverage to the circles for
years. If no one noticed the hoaxers' circles it can only
have been because there were many more intricate circle
patterns to take note of elsewhere.

-Stuart (Bristol, England)

There is 1 Reply.


#: 92624 S14/News/Current Events
18-Oct-91 01:04:31
Sb: #92582-CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Sheldon Cohen, TN 72140,327
To: Stuart Lees 75300,247 (X)

Well, I was going by what Time Magazine said. So if I was
wrong, actually I wasn't wrong--Time was.


#: 92666 S3/Satellite Observing
18-Oct-91 23:01:18
Sb: #92651-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Would you believe that even as I type, my trusty VCR is
taping the very TV show referred to. It's 9:28 P.M. in L.A.
and Fox is airing it from 9 - 10. From your comments, I'm
looking forward to viewing it at leisure when I log off.
(actually, I'm in Tapcis... technicalities technicalities).

There is some media confirmation involving at least the
Japanese circles. They appeared in rice paddies, and film of
them was shown on CNN's International News Hour, which airs
here around midnight. There was no mistaking them. Same
format.

I recall that your inquiry here about the possibility of
retrieving GEO's, and the thread eventially came around to a
concession that it was theoretically possible - and that
satellites could be linked before deployment, to increase
the payload to include maneuvering systems - and could upon
recovery be refueled and redeployed, I arrive at the
scenario that seems most possible.

I cling to GEO's because the precision of the alignments and
the sharpness of their outlines suggest a very stable and
stationary point of origin. The possibility of substantial
maneuvering payload means that considerable resources could
be utilized to establish the aligned spin necessary to
provide gyroscopic stability and make necessary corrections
for precession. A moving source, whether a spy plane or non-
GEO satellite would be taking great risks of malfunction or
imprecission, and would be very detectable. It also seems
convenient that the Royal Observatory's orbital tracking and
earth rotation measurement facility is in the affected area.

Bob
John,
telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23
http://ricksbbs.synchro.net:8080
---
þ Synchronet þ Rick's BBS telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23

PART 2




#: 182317 S10/Paranormal Issues
22-Oct-91 05:28:22
Sb: CIRCLE.TXT
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: All

The CompuServe thread which followed the Sept. 22 upload of
CIRCLE.TXT to ISSUES/PARANORMAL Lib. 10, can be found in
SPACE or ASTRONOMY Libs. 17 under the title CIRCIS.TXT.
Most of the thread took off over there, and anybody who
wants to pick it up will find it current as of Oct. 19. It
is text-with-line-breaks, right margin adjusted for ease of
use of file viewing utilities, and loading by
wordprocessors.

Bob


#: [PRIVATE] S7/Extraterrestrials?
23-Oct-91 --------
Sb: CIRCLES.txt
Fm: -------------------------
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

I think Hubble's orbit is only about 380 miles or so, way
below geosynchronous
orbit.

------------------




#: ------ S0/Outbox File
23-Oct-91 19:58:00
Sb: CIRCLES.txt
Fm: SPACEFOR REP -----
To: [PRIVATE]----------------

Thanks for responding, ----. I can't tell from the header
if your reference to the Hubble orbit includes reference
from CIRCIS.TXT, the CIS thread that followed CIRCLE.TXT.
(Lib. 17, ASTRO or SPACE.)

It was offered here that the orbit was 600 Km., 97 minute
period. Your figured may be more correct. The group of
interested writers who got involved in the thread uploaded
in CIRCLE.TXT were given a tour at JPL, wheere we understood
that the original hope was for the 25,000 mile GEO orbit,
and to link the Hubble in space, before deployment, with a
second Shuttle payload containing a nuclear powerpack and
auxiliary thruster system. This would have made possible
retrievability from GEO orbit by means of controllable
decaying orbit. 670 Km was designated as the highest
possible parking orbit at which it could be recovered,
serviced and fueled in space, then redeployed on the same
mission. We were even showed a mockup of the "spectacles"
with which the mirror abberations were to be corrected.

If the 380 mi (440 Km?) is the present case, it could have
done to enable more energetic efforts to do debuggings from
here while we wait til '93, the scheduled repair mission.
When the thread (as in CIRCIS.TXT) moved to S3/Shuttle
Observation? (where the 670 Km altitude was offered us), and
further discussion held on that premise) there were also
offered some good reasons that the Hubble would not have
been meant to to operate at such low orbits.

/SPLIT

SP7

#: --------- S7/Extraterrestrials?
--------- --------
Sb: -------CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

[Continued]

If the Hubble were meant to operate at even 600 mi., it
would be close enough to the highest penetration of the
ionosphere to make radio-telescopy unreliable at best. The
97 minute period would also require a much larger propulsion
and power reserve given the short exposure to a number of
essential guide stars. Likewise, target position fixing
becomes more precise at longer periods of orbit. One of the
early conjectural problems voiced in the original Hubble
proposals included the difficulty of obtaining enough
portion of the (then) 68,000 lb. Shuttle payload weight with
enough maneuvering system to give a long shelf life. When
the mission rules after Challenger were reduced to 48,000
lbs. this became a major problem.

You're correct in pointing out that a factual mistatement
exists about the Hubble actually being in GEO orbit. This
was followed up in CIRCIS.TXT, here on CIS, and we were
happy for it. We want to get the numbers right.

If you didn't see the messages involved, that scenarion that
suggested, and went from "no way" to "now that you mention
it, why not", and was noted out how easy it would be to
nudge a GEO satellite downward to initiate a slow,
controlled orbital decay.

Payload-linking and orbital redeployment were on the list of
Shuttle exercises before the Challenger disaster. I'll see
if I can find out exactly where Hubble is, at the moment.
Thanks for drawing my attention to your sense of it.

Bob



#: 92897 S3/Satellite Observing
25-Oct-91 07:37:41
Sb: #92707-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Bert/Janet Stevens 73357,1572
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Robert,

I am familiar with many of the things you mention.
However, I think my comments still stand.

In the lunar retrreflector project, the beamwidth at
lunar distance was not a couple yards as you seem to think
but a couple miles. (See Sky & Telescope, Feb. 1972, p. 88).
This particular beam included the focusing effects of a 60-
inch reflecting telescope. I find it hard to beleive they
hoisted a 1000-inch-plus telescope to geosynch orbit.

In addition, from geosynch orbit you could not aim the
beam with any accuracy. To be able to hit a target within a
200-foot circel, your aiming acuraccy would have to be
better than 0.2-second of arc (about 0.000046 degree). This
is impossible to achieve with ground-based telescopes, let
alone one that is wobbling around in geosync orbit. This is
why "spy" sattelites are in low Earth orbit rather than
geosynch orbits. They can get a much better look at the
surface.

Please note I am not (yet) arguing with the thesis, just
the geosynch delivery system. A satellite left in low Earth
orbit by the Shuttle make a lot more sense.

- Bert



#: 92911 S3/Satellite Observing
25-Oct-91 21:53:35
Sb: #92897-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Bert/Janet Stevens 73357,1572

Bert, I'm pleased that we've reached a point where what is
(yet) being discussed is not the main thesis, but the
specifics of the delivery platform itself. Re the lunar
reflectors - yes, there were finely modeled parabolic
reflectors at both ends of the experiments - which were
conducted in the '70's. The beamwidth at lunar distance *and
back*, a total of 476,000 miles, 19 times the 25,000 mile
distance a collimated beam would have to travel from a GEO
satellite, was a couple of miles.

So for the sake of discussion, let's adjust the distance a
bit, and add almost twenty years of R & D. some of which was
at the Hughes laser-dedicated research facility at Malibu,
about a half hour from my home near Santa Monica. My father
was a senior scientist at Hughes Aerospace in El Segundo,
first on the Surveyor Project, then Voyager. He never
breached security with me, but I had a sense of some of the
new stuff coming down the pipe. (He passed away in 1981.
He would have loved the crop formations),

If your hypothetical ground-based telescope had the benefit
of the newer, relatively high temperature superconducting
elecromagnetic collimation devices now routinely in use -
particularly in high energy maser emission - the problems of
focus, not to mention the relative mechanical stability of a
space-borne platform - become academic, because if I knew
how far such research had come, especially given the ambient
conditions of temperature in space, it would be at the
highest levels of classification and needto-know, as were so
many of the Shuttle flights, starting around the same time
the crop circles began to appear. Here we can only
brainstorm.

About stability, and spy satellite;

[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 92912 S3/Satellite Observing
25-Oct-91 21:53:50
Sb: #92911-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

A gyro-stabilized GEO satellite, will indeed precess, or
wobble. As a pilot I know the need to constantly correct a
gyro compass against a magnetic one to compensate this. It
takes a lot less hardware and fuel expenditure to briefly
stabilize a GEO-satellite on a ground point than it would to
line up a spy satellite with a point on the earth, then
rotate the emission/detection device to "pan" below over a
point over which the satellite is traveling at high speed.
Further, the risk of malfunction in a non-stationary system
would be unacceptable. The GEO's are more stable than you
might think. Ships and aircraft get position fixing to the
second of arc from them.

If you also consider the operations of radio astronomy or
simply holding on a spot on a Uranian moon, using guide
stars over the distances involved in such missions,
satellites can and may already be able to use a laser'ed hot
spot on the earth as a psuedo guide star for relatively
short term super-accurate stabilization. There is another
interesting factor - the presence in the Wiltshire area
(Horstmanceaux castle), with a strange recent history, near
or at which is the Royal Greenwich Observatory facility for
doing (at least) two things. One is the refinement of
orbital device tracking - another is precise measurement of
the rotation of the earth.

Since CEO orbit is defined as one where orbital velocity
exactly matches the speed of the rotation of the earth
beneath it, this seems convenient. The only indication of
drift by the source, in the circles themselves, is that many
are very slightly elliptical.

There is another argument against non-GEO emitters...

[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 92913 S3/Satellite Observing
25-Oct-91 21:54:03
Sb: #92912-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

A non-stationary spy satellite have a couple of problems in
common. The telescope has to deal first with the thickest
part of the atmosphere, then the rest, and by the time a
resolved image is procured a lot of diffraction and
refraction has occured. Especially at oblique angles, since
off the vertical, the amount of atmosphere to penetrate
increases. Flying directly over an airport on a smoggy day,
it looks very clear. But when approaching at an angle for
landing, one enters the smog layer and is looking into it
edgewise, and visibility can drop from 50 miles to 1/4 mile
in an instant. That's why a lot of L.A. pilots have
instrument ratings.

A non stationary spy sattelite faces not only the same
difficulties (and, by the way, many of the pictures you see
are extracted from much larger ones. It isn't always in the
center of the pass), but even overhead the total path
through atmosphere is probably at least 20 or more % of its
altitude. From 25000 miles, given the extremely sharply
collimated and amplified emissions it figures are now
possible - relative atmospheric effects are far less.

Finally, given the quantity and frequency of the crop
events, I can't imagine a spy satellite's overflight not
being correlated to the on-site realities. A GEO, on the
other hand, can be damned hard to find if you don't know
where to look, or at least when and where it was deployed.
You won't learn either from the preflight manual of a secret
Shuttle mission.

And please note, I appreciate the "devil's advocacy." The
truth might be somewhere between us.

Bob


#: 92922 S3/Satellite Observing
26-Oct-91 07:20:08
Sb: #92913-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Frank Hentschel 75126,72
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Actually, the Global Positioning System (NavStar)
satellites are not in geosync orbits. The orbits are
approximately 20,000 km with a 718 minute period. Position
is derived from time delay measurements from 3 or more
satellites. The receivers periodically download an ephmeris
from the satellites to update orbital elements.

Also, as an author and user of satellite tracking
software, I can say that, from a computational viewpoint,
finding a geosync satellite is an order of magnitude easier
than a low earth orbiting one.

cheers -fjh


#: 92945 S3/Satellite Observing
26-Oct-91 21:35:19
Sb: #92922-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Frank Hentschel 75126,72

Thanks for the information about the NavStar orbits, Frank.
I knew they used three for position fixing, but hadn't
realized they operated at that much velocity. The
downloading of an ephemeris to update orbital elements is
remarkable, no matter how jaded one gets. (All those hours
with a Weems plotter, fine print in red light, and a sextant
bubble that refused to fit the little bullseye pocket, loran
that could only doodle...)

When you refer to the relative ease of finding a low earth
orbiting satellite compared to a GEO, do you mean that with
radar alone, without seeds such as deployment data?

Would this also be true if the the time, place and altitude
at which the object deployed were unknown, (in the case of
the GEO) and it emitted no radio frequency energy in any
mode other than a very narrow beam to/from another
satellite? Can a GEO be (easily) found with radar alone?

I appreciate the specifics Frank, and the following isn't
meant to be evasive. Presuming, as my side of the thread
does, that the events under discussion are part of an
international co-venture, probably including the British,
and the classification level would be pretty high; is it
within the capability of equipment available to amateurs to
locate a non-emmitting GEO satellite from within a 100 mile
circle of its Clarke station? Especially if it were
designed to have very low optical (and other) reflectivity?

Your on-the-job expertise is very appreciated. My apologies
if any of the questions push the limits of prudence,
security-wise. But, some amateurs might want to take "a
look," if it's possible.

Bob


#: 92995 S3/Satellite Observing
27-Oct-91 20:37:44
Sb: #92913-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Bert/Janet Stevens 73357,1572
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob,

I feel like I'm slogging through mud on this one. I do
not work for the gov't, and have no idea what they are doing
in the "secret labs". Since most of your arguments come
back to "recent advances in secret research" only available
to those with a "need to know", how can I argue against
anything?

Perhaps they have put a secret automated base on the Moon.
Have you checked the circles to see if their correlation
matches the Moon being in the sky? How about Mars, Venus,
or Mercury? See my problem, you can always hypothesize a
pointing/trageting accuracy available in the secret labs
with some exotic beam-collimation technique to move back as
far as you want.

My comments about the laser beam are trying to say that
the spread is *NOT* due to the poor '60's technology, but
due to the natural laws of physics regarding light. Unless
some active role is taken en-route, the beam WILL spread no
matter how it is generated.

I cannot think of anyway to overcome the "secret lab"
problem. It reminds me of the UFO arguments I had in the
sixty's. When asked for proof that UFO (read extraterestial
visitors) exist, they would always say that there was a
secret government conspiricy to hide the data. The good
data was hidden (at Wright-Patterson AFB as I remember), or
was ridiculed and made to look phoney. Hence, you could
never argue with them since, according to them, the proof is
right there: just get the government to release it and we
will all be beleivers.

Unfortunately, I think I may have to put this one into
the "yes-maybe-but it doesn't matter until it's proved". My
favorite line was "UFO's may or may not exist, but I am not
going to worry about it until a large metal saucer lands in
Grant Park (downtown Chicago, IL) and Michael Renne walks
out followed by an 8-foot metal robot" (a la "The Day the
Earth Stood Still") <g>.

-Bert

There is 1 Reply.

#: 93009 S3/Satellite Observing
27-Oct-91 22:23:32
Sb: #92995-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Dick DeLoach, Sysop 76703,303
To: Bert/Janet Stevens 73357,1572

I agree with David Letterman, who listed among the Top Ten
Things We As Americans Can Be Proud Of, the fact that more
AMERICANS have actually been abducted by extraterestrials
than citizens of any other country in the whole world... -)
(<-- DDL's tongue-in-cheek symbol <g>)

--- Dick


#: 93011 S3/Satellite Observing
27-Oct-91 22:39:33
Sb: #92995-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Bert/Janet Stevens 73357,1572

Bert, I sympathize with the sense of mud-slogging you find
yourself in. It feels like that from this side of the
argument, too. I don't know what's happening in secret labs
this year. Or last year. I *saw* what was happening twenty
years ago, and given the exponential rate of technological
progress, I don't have a problem with presuming considerable
advancement on a large scale, given the advancements in
medical applications on a small scale which were even more
inconceivable then.

One if the new technologies which is not a secret is the
progress in high temperature superconductive technologies,
and their ability to enable electromagnetic fields, and the
use of such fields in generating and collimating and
amplifying laser and maser emissions. In the uploaded file,
CIRCLE.TXT, there are ample references to laser collimation
references which are more substantive than the vague
references space limitations allow here.

And yes, a laser or a maser beam will spread, but from a
couple of millimeters to a hundred yards over a 25,000 mile
distance, given the fact of zero G, low ambient temperature,
and the efficiency of superconductive elements in space, I
don't think this scenario steps outside the bounds of
natural law.

The robot and Michael Rennie were Gork and Klaatu. I can
never remember which is which...

I understand your skepticism, Bert, and respect it. Thanks
for the suggestion about the secret lunar base. I'll check
it out. The only UFO's I've referred to are person-made
ones.
Bob



#: 92947 S3/Satellite Observing
26-Oct-91 21:36:27
Sb: #92911-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

...as were so many of the Shuttle flights, starting around

the same time the crop circles began to appear.<<

Bob, just so the timeline of this phenomena is clear; the
first well photographed and investigated crop circle was
found at a place called Headbourne Worthy (Wiltshire area)
in the summer of 1978. Interestingly enough, it was not
just a simple circle but a large inner circle with 4 smaller
circles grouped around it in the now familiar "footpad"
pattern. See "Circular Evidence" by Delgado and Andrews.
From all accounts it was essentially identical to many of
the patterns still being produced in 1990 and 1991.

As you are probably aware, the first shuttle flight was on
4/12/81, nearly 3 years later. The first shuttle flight
with a DOD payload was 6/27/82, about 4 years later.


#: 92957 S3/Satellite Observing
27-Oct-91 06:04:35
Sb: #92945-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Frank Hentschel 75126,72
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Aside from the computational aspect, searching for a GEO
object versus a low orbiting one in an unknown orbit would
also be easier. The time factor is eliminated and you are
looking in a narrow band of sky for a stationary object as
opposed to searching the whole sky and not knowing if the
object is in line of sight at the time. The deployment
parameters really don't matter as the altitude/period are
determined by the object being geosync. The only unknown is
the orbital longitude. The optical/radar visibility would
depend on the size/shape and surface characteristics, of
course. GEO satellites are seen frequently by amateur
astronomers and other observers under favorable lighting
conditions. Also, a number of the 'secret' shuttle payloads
have been observed during deployment and subsequently
tracked by amateur observers, although their orbital
elements are not officially published. Those that I'm aware
of (I'm not completely up to date), believed to be KH type
recon satellites and, indeed, SDI related payloads, have
been in low earth orbits. None of the above precludes your
theory of course. My only objection would be that with
thousands of square miles of closed test ranges available (I
spent a good portion of my USAF career tramping around some
of them, on unrelated (and unmentionable<g>) projects), I
don't see the the necessity for publically plowing up
farmer's fields.

cheers -fjh


#: 46594 S3/Probes/Satellites
27-Oct-91 22:08:43
Sb: #CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Erik, if I'm to cling to the idea of Shuttle deployment as
an exclusive, or even primary delivery system, I have to
take your observations on the time line very seriously. The
only qualifier in the pursuit of further distillation
concerns what we can and can't presume about the reliability
of information; that being the amount of disinformation
common even the inside a project infrastructure.

That said, I find myself with new questions. One being "how
knowable" is the date of the first DoD payload, and how
"knowable" is the nature of some which may have preceded it?
I've read Delgado and others - and have seen detailed
photography of early formations compared to later ones. The
increasing sophistication and complexity - as well as
quantity - becomes an unmistakeable progression. The
Barbury formation of July, 1991, renders a general hoax less
credible than ever.

The question most important to my basic hypothesis might be,
how much payload could be placed in high orbit from a
conventional rocket booster in the late '70's? Published
figures for the Shuttle are 65,000 pounds, reduced to 48,000
under post Challenger mission rules. I'd only add that
having worked an early division of RAND, Santa Monica, in an
editorial capacity that included orchestration of press
releases re true or fancied classification levels of
specific missions, there did/do exist disinforming cloaking
strategies in the publication of information.

You have, however, required that I investigate conventional
booster capabilities. I may have to be more flexible about
exclusive Shuttle deployment.


[More]

There is 1 Reply.

#: 46595 S3/Probes/Satellites
27-Oct-91 22:08:53
Sb: #46594-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

This is just anecdotal to torture satellite observers, Erik.
I live near the Pacific coast, about forty miles from
Vandenberg, AFB. We are frequently treated to a light-show
when the mission includes ionosphere studies and photo-
active substances are discharged. And of course the landing
path of many Shuttles into Edwards places their multible
sonic booms right over our heads. That's how we know when to
go turn on CNN.

We also frequently see regular launches headed down the
Pacific Missile Range. If the Satellite Observers are
organized, I suspect you guys must maintain a "Woops..."
watch in the public mountain country not far away. A lot of
those launches are a surprise even to the Vandenberg
personnel scrambled to make them. Some of the launches
which turn out to be the most innocently described to the
launch personnel, have a way of departing their "need-to-
know" along with the booster.

Bob


#: 46596 S3/Probes/Satellites
27-Oct-91 22:09:08
Sb: #CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Frank Hentschel 75126,72

Frank, the "why there?" question is one which came up early
in the thread of CIRCLE.TXT, and at length in the
accompanying CIRCIS.TXT (Lib. 17) which contains much of the
CompuServe thread which ensued upon the upload of the prior
Sept. 22 upload to ISSUES/PARANORMAL Lib. 10 (and currently
in Lib 17, here).

The question as to detectability of a GEO that didn't want
to be found... how important to finding it *is* knowledge of
its longitude? And, if the time of deployment and angle of
insertion were cloaked, does that make the task more
difficult?

Having had a bit of "Think Tank" experience as a dept.
editor for what then was a division of RAND (Later the
System Develp. Corp, Santa Monica), the use of Wiltshire was
made to order, and one of the cleverest covers I can
imagine. The area in that 100 mile circle, roughly centered
on Avebury, with Stonehenge not far away, already has in
place over 5,000 years of local history loaded with images
and a metaphysical tradition. Many of the figures we see,
starting with the plainer circles, start to look startingly
as though their stencils had been made from Kabbalistic,
Sufic, Celtic, even 17th Cent. Rosicrucian iconography. Add
to this the widespread interest in the area's system of Ley
lines, stone and earth circles, and the presence on site of
an RGO facility directly involved with satellite position
fixing and earth-rotation (Horstmanceaux, press releases
notwithstanding), the rules of evidence become unmaneagable.
It's an old story - the best possible cover for a new one.


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 46597 S3/Probes/Satellites
27-Oct-91 22:09:21
Sb: #46596-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

Re test ranges, I have the impression that you've shlepped
to and through your share of them, Frank. You know the
logistical problems of access, and the visibility of ground
movement that would be anomalous to those spySats which
routinely monitor such ground activity. I still don't know
if you've actually seen good pictures of the more complex
ones, but there is one called "the fly" which looks very
much like an ancient Anasazi (Ariz.) petroglyph I have in a
collection of rubbings and drawings produced by the
Smithsonian in the 1870's. A sense of humor or a mistake?

Almost every one of the more complex formations (and the
simpler ones) bears almost identicality to the historical
sites and metaphysical iconography.

I'm in private correspondence with several of the on site
researchers, and it's a topic of some merriment about all
the electronic gear being dragged about by some of the
"tourists," who often make sure to buy a T-shirt. This is a
quote from a note I got today on another forum, from the
UK...

"In the UK, Channel 4 has just broadcast a program in the
Equinox series on crop circles. Unfortunately, they didn't
mention the 'Star War' theories. [Either has anybody
else...]. The one conventional scientist on there was
hopelessly outnumbered by paranormal weirdos and
'parascientists.' His plasma vortices were totally
unconvincing when you look at the 'pictograms'. So its nice
that he has recanted and now says that only the circular
ones are 'genuine' coz his theory only fits those."

He goes on to describe a convincing hoax demonstration, but
not up to the numbers and complexities observe. The rules
of evidence are unmaneagable.

Bob


#: 93013 S3/Satellite Observing
27-Oct-91 23:46:29
Sb: CIRCLE.txt (woops...)
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Eric Albrekston 70312,3576

Eric, my response to your #92947 wound up over on
SPACE/Probes/Satellites, also S3 there. It's #46594.
Tapcis did it, of course. Human error is inconcievable...
I'll post a redirection there, too. They must be very
confused. Sorry.

Bob


#: 93014 S3/Satellite Observing
27-Oct-91 23:46:35
Sb: CIRCLE.txt (woops II..)
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Frank Hentschel 75126,72

As in a prior to Erik Albrekston, Frank, my reply to your #
92957 here got misdirected to SPACE/Probes/Satellites and is
# 46596 there. My apologies.

Bob


#: 46599 S3/Probes/Satellites
27-Oct-91 23:47:19
Sb: CIRCLE.txt (wrong forum)
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: All

I apologize for the misdirection of #'s 46594 and 46956 to
this forum. They were in response to #'s 92947 and 92957 on ASTROFORUM/Satellite Observing - also S3. (Tapcis error of
course... <blush>)

For the thoroughly confused, but possibly intrigued, the
accidently diverted thread is one which ensued from the
Sept. 22 upload of CIRCLE.TXT to ISSUES/PARANORMAL Lib. 10.
This and the bulk of the lengthy CompuServe thread which
has ensued (CIRCIS.TXT) can both be found in Lib. 17 (new
uploads).

CIRCLE.TXT is the upload of a non-metaphysical thread from
the "Science & Health" forum of the (members only) BBS of
the Writers' Guild of America, West, (WGA), Los Angeles. It
deals mostly with a theory that (some of) the "crop events"
of Wiltshire, UK, and other places, are artifacts of SDI
related tests conducted from Shuttle deployed GEO
satellites.

Again, my regrets over any confusion, though more than a few
think it's all mine.

Bob

#: 93019 S3/Satellite Observing
28-Oct-91 08:20:37
Sb: #93014-CIRCLE.txt (woops II..)
Fm: Frank Hentschel 75126,72
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

No problem, I found it <g>.

If you know a GEO's orbital longitude, a relatively simple
trig calculation tells you exactly where to look (See the
file SATELL.TXT in LIB 3 for the formula). All the other
orbital elements necessary to find LEO objects 'drop out'.
If the longitude is unknown, knowing the deployment
parameters might give you a clue as to position, but only if
you had other data in hand, such as the delta-v involved,
etc. As I said, it comes down to searching for a stationary
object that you know is in line of sight in a narrow strip
of sky versus searching the whole sky for an object with an
unknown transit time in the case of a LEO sat. If
concealment was the main priority, a sat in a high
inclination LEO with large maneuvering fuel reserves,
allowing frequent orbit changes to inhibit recovering it's
orbital parameters from sporadic observation, would be my
(admittedly amateur) choice. As to test range use,
'unusual' ground activity is 'usual' there and I believe it
attracts less attention there than elsewhere. Truckloads of
equipment setting up in the middle of nowhere and then
vanishing abruptly are routine, as are unexplained (unless
you're involved) lights, noises and other phenomena. Also,
it has been, and I assume still, been common practice to
combine the activities of various projects to further
confuse the issue for potential observers, allowing one
project to serve as 'cover' if you will, for another.

cheers -fjh


#: 93047 S3/Satellite Observing
28-Oct-91 19:10:33
Sb: #93011-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Bob Norton / NM 72167,3420
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob,
Gort (not Gork) was the robot. Klaatu was Michael Rennie.
BTW, "Klaatu Verato Nektu" is VERY corrupt Esperanto for
"Klaatu Truly Dead".

Bob


#: 93015 S3/Satellite Observing
28-Oct-91 00:44:51
Sb: #92995-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Bert/Janet Stevens 73357,1572

You might check out, for instance, the work that was
declassified a few months ago, on the laser focussing
(ground to air in this case) problem, work that the DoD has
been conducting in secret since 1981 (just at the time the
cruder crop circles began to appear in earnest). (2
articles, and a news editorial in Nature, about a month
ago.) This was released only when civilian researchers
essentially duplicated the work on their own.

A Secret Lab is a clumsy term for it suggests underground
complexes, and radar-dodging, and camouflage painted silos.
The lab may be right in the middle of Cambridge,
Massachusetts, and you can walk, drive, or row past it; but
some of the work that goes on inside may very well be highly
secret. And even the lowest of the many levels of secrecy
imposed on government sponsored work may be sufficient to
keep all but the most indefatigably curious ignorant
of the work.

Secret labs exist, if not in this country, then certainly in
others. We bombed them recently, for instance. But do you
really believe that there is no work of substance being
carried on under conditions of secrecy in this country? And
if money is appropriated for work in a certain field of
research, is it unreasonable to think that research is being
carried on in those fields?



#: 93060 S3/Satellite Observing
29-Oct-91 00:15:28
Sb: #93019-CIRCLE.txt (woops II..)
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Frank Hentschel 75126,72

You found it. Sigh...

I'm very grateful for the information, Frank. You may be an
amateur, but you're certainly an astute one, and in offering
the LEO scenario, you made a very welcome contribution to
the general "brainstorm" on this issue. The intention from
the start was to generate informed discussion about an
enigma, the crop events, beginning with the path of least
resistance offered by concentrating on the known effects of
known technologies, and adjusting as required, until the
theory is shot down beyond resurrection.

I suspect we could trade "cover ploy" stories far into the
night/day (one of the unknowns that makes telecommunications
so magical), and know enough not to. The ones you cite are
time honored.

It might be of general interest that some years back a
simultaneous triple launch took place at Vandenberg,
observed from L.A. because of a full moon and an icy alto-
cirrus layer. An air traffic controller friend who was
involved in "range safety" told me, but only after it was in
the newspapers, that the launches were indeed simultaneous,
but though ATC had been told they were weapons tests, the
payloads were inserted into orbit, and never arrived at the
target zone. Nor did any further information about the
unusual launch, which people near Vandenberg thought was an
earthquake.

Bob


#: 93140 S3/Satellite Observing
30-Oct-91 17:13:54
Sb: CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob, the occasional references to Herstmonceaux Castle as a
possible participant in the crop circle phenomena piqued my
curiosity. Got out the maps and made a call or two and
confirmed that, indeed, not too long ago it was affiliated
with the Royal Greenwich Observatory. It was the home of the
UK's Atomic Clock. Was sold to private interests in 1985
and is not currently open to the public. The observatory
itself is now located in Cambridge. Nothing too surprising
in all that. What did surprise me was the actual location
of Herstmonceaux Castle. It is in East Sussex, about 40
miles southeast of London near the village of Hailsham.
Absolutely nowhere near the crop circle activity in
Wiltshire which is at least 100 miles due west. Don't
remember who originally brought up this subject but it's
clearly a red herring.



#: 93156 S3/Satellite Observing
31-Oct-91 05:15:10
Sb: #93140-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Erik, I'm not *quite* <g> ready to concede Herstmonceaux as
a red herring, at least not based on its being 100 miles due
east of the major crop circle activity. I had thought it
more central than that, but 100 miles seems close enough for
the purpose. I should quote the information I got from a UK
source. It doesn't exclude yours, but does go a bit
further, and who's to say what really goes on behind closed
doors. That's not a hedge, but a concession that multiple
accounts exist. If anybody knows the following to be
untrue, It's into the red herring pond for Herstomnceaux.

"The Satellite Laser Ranger scope at Herstmonceaux is still
(1991) used by the RGO for measuring orbits of artificial
satellites, for measuring precise earth-rotation-parameters.
The work of the RGO is quite interesting -mostly design and
maintenance of of the new equipment at La Palma, and
development of new technology in astronomical research (both
telescopes and data collection/processing equipment."

I have no idea where La Palma is, by the way. But, the
first 2 1/2 sentences of the above quote seem compellingly
relevant to what might be required of whatever spaceborne
system we ultimately define, if any. If the above is
correct, the actual location of a data link site could be
anywhere, and very inconspicuous.

We have established, however, that different accounts of the
major activity of Herstonceaux vary. "All of the above"
might be the case. I hope someone with specific knowledge
and free to share it will help us out, here.

Bob



#: 93160 S3/Satellite Observing
31-Oct-91 05:40:42
Sb: #93011-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Bert/Janet Stevens 73357,1572
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob,

I think I will read both CIRCLE.TXT and the thread before
replying again, though I think my arguments stand. I feel
that they are based on physical laws which I do not think
technology can overcome.

I'll message you when I come up with a better answer.

-Bert

#: 93166 S3/Satellite Observing
31-Oct-91 10:00:55
Sb: #93156-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

In my note around the corner, I also make the mistake of
placing Herstmonceaux (will someone please tell us how to
spell it -- I've misplaced all six volumes of my Augustus
Hare) in the midst of the Crop Circle activity.

I feel it necessary to point out two things here. One is
that if crop circles are the result of SDI testing, there is
no conspiracy. There is secret military testing, as there
has been secret military testing since the Italians were
trying to figure out how to make gunpowder kill people --
and it was old then. Any actual conspiracy is mounted for
the purpose of maintaining secrecy about the project, and
not for the success of the project itself.

Bob, I think you acquiesce too quickly in the matter of
Herstmonceaux. The castle was abandoned abruptly and
without warning, the Observatory moved awkwardly to another
location entirely. It was sold for so little money to a
developer that there is a small protest movement got up
against the gov't's action. Two years later, and nothing
done with the development, it was auctioned to two groups:
an anonymous American investors company, and a large
Japanese firm, who sued one another, insuring that the
facility remains doing exactly what it is doing now:
satellite tracking etc. If we are right, then this
sequence of events makes good sense; if we are wrong, then
this sequence of events makes no pattern and no sense
whatever.

The British Gov't had >some< reason for doing what they did
with Herstmonceaux, and it could be very very trivial -- a
clerk got tired of being castigated for misspelling the
damned name, and set into motion a chain of nudges that
resulted in... But I think it more likely that the British
gov't wanted the place for satellite work, work they wanted
to keep private. (This isn't necessarily to do with crop
circles, I understand.)


#: 93187 S3/Satellite Observing
31-Oct-91 20:15:11
Sb: #93156-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob, your observations notwithstanding, the attention being
directed to Herstmonceaux (which is, BTW, the correct
spelling) justs seems totally unwarranted. First, it is
*nowhere* near any concentration of crop circle activity (10
Downing Street is closer to Wiltshire than Herstmonceaux!);
Second, the fact that the public is aware of the facility
makes it an unlikely candidate inasmuch as the UK no doubt
has other more strategically located secret research
installations; Third, the real estate transactions
concerning its sale suggest nothing more sinister than
routine government bungling. No doubt, had the sale been
done more cleanly and less publicly, that too would have
held up as an example of a secret hidden agenda; Fourthly,
the circle phenomena pre-dated the sale by at least 7 years.

Recent contributions to this thread, including Bert's
discussion of beam propogation and GS satellites, and the
fact that the circle phenomena clearly predates Shuttle
missions, suggests to me that a more active exploration of
alternative delivery platforms might be warranted. Also,
for this theory to gain adherents it has to better address
the "seasonality" of the phenomena. It doesn't seem to me
that we can dismiss this feature with a casual observation
that other circles are showing up around the globe. I have
been able to find precious little in the way of credible
investigatory reports of non-UK circles. If you have any
info on this aspect, I'd love to see it.

-Erik-


#: 93159 S3/Satellite Observing
31-Oct-91 05:40:34
Sb: #93015-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Bert/Janet Stevens 73357,1572
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

Michael,

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I
know there is alot of research going on that I do not know
anything about. I agree with you that there is much
research going in the fields related to SDI.

On obvious example is the adaptive optics that are just
becoming available to the professional astronomers from a
declassification last year. I am sure there is much more in
other fields, such as particle beam generation and
collimation, laser and maser beam generation, etc.

What I was trying to point out that there are certain
physical laws that, as far as I can tell, cannot be avoided
with the wave of a "new secret technology which you do not
know anything about" wand. One of these is spreading of any
beam, even if absolutely collimated when it leaves its
source. Another is the difficulty of precisely pointing
that beam over a 23,000 mile distance.

My only argument was that this stuff, if it is being
done, is much more likely to be coming from a low-earth
orbit sattelite rather than a geosynchronus orbit sattelite.
Of course, if I happen to be right, is why is this sattelite
being fired at England and not the U.S.

-Bert

There is 1 Reply.

#: 93165 S3/Satellite Observing
31-Oct-91 09:36:03
Sb: #93159-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Bert/Janet Stevens 73357,1572

I can think of several reasons why England and not the U.S.

1) If such crop circles appeared in western Nebraska and
southern Idaho, people would look down, look up, look around
and say "Oh. Government testing." In England, people leap
up and down, and shriek: "Druids. Ley lines. UFOs. The
Old Ones. Jovial Eccentrics." The government(s) don't have
to deny anything, and all their stories are made up for
them.

2) England is mapped better than the U.S. Precision is
easier to calibrate there. Hurstmonceaux, which was the
Greenwich Observatory, until the Thatcher gov't abruptly
decided to vacate the premises, is now officially empty and
in modern chancery -- except for the satellite tracking
instrumentation, which they admit is continuing work.
Hurstmonceaux is in the midst of all this business. The
U.S. doesn't have the equivalent.

3) If the British government knows what is going on -- and
the Army's disinformational creation of a crop circle last
year may not have been purely recreational -- then it is
conceivable that the U.S. provided a limited partnership.
Our guns, their shooting gallery. (If this is true, then
the gov't is doing a pretty good job compared to earlier
experimentation with new technologies -- not a single death
reported yet from crop encircling.)

4) If these are lasers, masers, whatever, in satellites (and
I think I agree, that the orbits cannot be 25,000 miles
out); then they are certainly meant (ultimately) as weapons.
To a European nation, a crop circle drawn in a Wyoming
alfalfa field doesn't have the impact of bisected concentric
circles in a field of rape a few hundred kilometers distant.
(There were a few circles appearing early last summer, in
the nations that had just freed themselves of Communist
yokes.) From the U.S.'s point of view, they would need to
test these techniques in the sorts of places where lurk
whatever enemy we choose to designate such in the future:
Sumatra, Zimbabwe, Romania, Ecuador.



#: 93187 S3/Satellite Observing
31-Oct-91 20:15:11
Sb: #93156-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Bob, your observations notwithstanding, the attention being
directed to Herstmonceaux (which is, BTW, the correct
spelling) justs seems totally unwarranted. First, it is
*nowhere* near any concentration of crop circle activity (10
Downing Street is closer to Wiltshire than Herstmonceaux!);
Second, the fact that the public is aware of the facility
makes it an unlikely candidate inasmuch as the UK no doubt
has other more strategically located secret research
installations; Third, the real estate transactions
concerning its sale suggest nothing more sinister than
routine government bungling. No doubt, had the sale been
done more cleanly and less publicly, that too would have
held up as an example of a secret hidden agenda; Fourthly,
the circle phenomena pre-dated the sale by at least 7 years.

Recent contributions to this thread, including Bert's
discussion of beam propogation and GS satellites, and the
fact that the circle phenomena clearly predates Shuttle
missions, suggests to me that a more active exploration of
alternative delivery platforms might be warranted. Also,
for this theory to gain adherents it has to better address
the "seasonality" of the phenomena. It doesn't seem to me
that we can dismiss this feature with a casual observation
that other circles are showing up around the globe. I have
been able to find precious little in the way of credible
investigatory reports of non-UK circles. If you have any
info on this aspect, I'd love to see it.

-Erik-

Forum !


#: 93204 S3/Satellite Observing
01-Nov-91 05:41:01
Sb: #93166-#CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

Michael, I checked my message, and if Eric is reading this,
I'll have you know I spelled Herstmonceaux correctly two
times out of five, I think it was. I'm better with the
Amerindian names which abound here...

I haven't let go of it - certainly not on the basis of its
distance from Wiltshire. I am also less committed to the
high orbit delivery, but not because of the problem of beam
spreading. As I become more informed through the questions
raised here (the whole purpose of the exercise being to
raise the question), I'm more comfortable with the idea that
delivery from lower orbit is possible. I don't know enough
to be locked into anything - just the inherent credibility
that the technology exists to do this, and that alone
guarantees that it will be done. That's basic historical
perspective.

If I concede the possibility of LEO instead of GEO, it is
because a crash course in the current state of the art of
target-fixing during LEO overflight time frames suggests
enough sophistication to satisfy my need for a stationary
platform. It also allows for the use of component deployment
by conventional boosters in the years of the early events of
the late '70s.

Conceding LEO delivery, the distance from Herstmonceaux to
Wiltshire isn't enough to preclude its involvement. In the
case of LEO's, I would expect several data uplinks along the
ground track, including some quite further than
Herstmonceaux.


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 93205 S3/Satellite Observing
01-Nov-91 05:41:09
Sb: #93204-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

I didn't want to get into the question of relative distance
(100 miles from Herstmonceaux to Wiltshire) because as long
as I clung to GEO vs. LEO I was on shaky ground, needing an
onsite observation point. Conceding a lower orbiter renders
the distance argument moot, and strengthens the relevance of
its attributed function. And as you say, it might be
irrelevant. What I did want to avoid was getting the main
scenario caught in a closed loop of what can only remain
speculation for now. We need to establish the basic
credibility of the proferred scenario, and refine
methodology from there.

What pleases me very much is that the discussion seems to be
taking on focus. It feels more like the SDI theory is being
tested than refuted. I came into this flexible, and remain
so.

Bob


#: 93206 S3/Satellite Observing
01-Nov-91 05:41:22
Sb: #93187-#CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Erik, I addressed some of the same questions you raised in
my prior to Michael McDowell. I'm more than willing, as I
expressed to him, to consider other than GEO delivery, which
as I noted, renders the distance of Herstmonceaux to
Wiltshire moot, and strengthens the relevance of its alleged
function. That it post-dates the first phenomena by seven
years might or might not be meaningful. One could speculate
that such a ground facility might not have been needed until
the state of the technology required it - and nobody can
argue that the sophistication of the crop formations hasn't
undergone an increased sophistication since then.

Softening my position to allow for LEO delivery, as in all
objectivity it seems I should. This allows for conventional
booster insertion before the earlier secret Shuttle flights.
It also allows for the insertion of components to be
retrieved and assembled and redeployed by the later Shuttle
missions. That this is a feasible idea is inherent to the
ongoing plan to do that with Hubble.

Unlatching the above doors a bit, it is indeed difficult to
find hard corroboration of crop events outside the UK, with
some notable exceptions, which I videotaped when they were
aired. There were a number of events in the American
midwest - in wheat fields - which included the "trilling"
effect which characterizes some of the English events. An
interview with one very bewildered Iowa farmer was
especially interesting. The same program showed footage of
similar formations in Japan, stating that there have been
quite a few there.


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 93207 S3/Satellite Observing
01-Nov-91 05:41:36
Sb: #93206-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

Admittedly, this doesn't address your question about
"seasonality." Because of the way invocation of
Classification is understandably perceived as begging an
issue, I have to presume that tests held elsewhere at
different times of the year haven't taken place because we
haven't heard of them. What I can do, however, is toss back
the argument when it is applied as "why Wiltshire?" Michael
McDowell has eloquently made the argument about the many
cloaks of obfuscation represented by the site.

Here are some things I don't know. I don't know if the same
kind of testing is ongoing or periodic. Having been privy
to knowledge about other research projects, I know from
experience that many projects alternate between phases of
indoors and outdoors operations. A period of R & D is
followed by a test phase, followed by more R & D followed by
more testing.

I do know that testing is only a phase of the R & D of many
high tech projects, and may be periodic. There must be
immense amounts of indoor work that follows the gathering of
test results. More often than not, modification and
implementation lags behind test data. If cycled tests are
what is happening, I don't think resolving the fact of that
is necessary to upholding the original working premise.

As to credible investigatory reports that address
seasonality, I think a search is a good idea. I'm not a
farmer, and don't know what's in season where, but I would
certainly look to the southern hemisphere, from which the
silence has been deafening. Given the density of satellite
tracking facilities we have there, Australia might prove
interesting. Does anybody out there have any Aussie friends
who might respond to an inquiry?

Bob



#: 93238 S3/Satellite Observing
01-Nov-91 19:19:09
Sb: #93206-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Lawrence Geary/NJ 74017,3065
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Robert,

I think your CIRCLES hypothesis falls down on a number of
other points regardless of whether a GEO or LEO satellite is
involved. Frankly, it just doesn't make a whole lot of
logical sense.

You postulate that, over a period of more than a decade, one
or more governments launched secret satellites into orbit
with secret SDI laser and/or maser devices as payloads. The
only evidence you cite for this is the appearance of patches
of bent wheat in some English fields.

Firstly, demonstrate to us that when a laser or maser is
fired at a collection of wheat, the result is not heating
and burning of the wheat, but to break the stalks somewhere
above the root or gently bend them down and swirl them in a
circle, with no evidence of heat damage. You have provided
no evidence that lasers or masers can do this. Your
allusions to circular polarization are, to my knowledge,
wrong.

Demonstrate that an after effect of blasting wheat with such
a hypothetical device is to leave the area with an eerie
"trilling" sound (sort of like a cricket or locust?) that
persists over many days/weeks. Please explain the physics of
this after effect.

You postulate that this testing program has been going on
for a long time, yet you show no evidence of the testing
progressing at all. That the earlier patterns were circles
and later ones are circles with lines or musical notes is
not evidence of a progressive testing program. Satellites
are pretty damned expensive to build, launch and monitor,
and I can't see the logic in launching a series of them with
different reticle patterns over *ten years* or more and
still performing the same trivial aiming tests. [continued]


#: 93239 S3/Satellite Observing
01-Nov-91 19:19:25
Sb: #93206-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Lawrence Geary/NJ 74017,3065
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

[continued]

You do not consider that simple aiming and alignment testing
of the sort you suggest can be carried out very simply and
unobtrusively without the need to pockmark the ground. One
need only set up a temporary array of detectors in a grid
pattern, blast it (a low power infrared laser will do fine),
record the data and recover the array. The military loves
high tech stuff, and a detector array is a heck of a lot
more high tech than a wheat field.

The notion that the government(s) is (are) "sending a
message" to some unnamed countries in Europe by pockmarking
English wheat fields is as bizarre as the 1960's notion that
the Chinese were sending political messages to the "west" by
changing the way Mao combed his hair. "If you want to send a
message, try Western Union." In the current context, James
Baker can be quite effective at delivering messages to
governments, friendly and unfriendly alike, and without the
ambiguity inherent in heiroglyphics which many consider
either a natural phenomenon or a series of hoaxes.

Isn't there evidence somewhere of a crop circle in the
1600's? If they happened then, then there is no reason to
invoke secret government projects to explain their existence
today.

Frankly, the idea that these circles are the imprints of
flying saucer landing struts is more plausible than the one
you suggest. In my opinion, we are seeing some combination
of a) wind, b) strange insect behavior, and c) deliberate
hoaxes by farmers out for a quick pound from gullible
tourists.

--Larry



#: 93272 S3/Satellite Observing
02-Nov-91 01:00:39
Sb: #93207-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

I did a fairly expensive amount of downloading here on
Compuserve a couple of months ago on crop circles,
scientific articles when I could get them, English
periodicals and papers, etc. (I'm in Boston, my files are
in California, but they'll be sent out to me soon.) I
remember that there were a very few crop circles in
Australia, but that they pre-dated the early 80s swarmings
in Wiltshire.

Herstmonceaux Castle was valued at (Pound) One in the
Domesday Book. For a rather heftier sum, the British gov't
purchased it in 1946. I don't know what year its telescopes
went into operation.



#: 93274 S3/Satellite Observing
02-Nov-91 01:34:03
Sb: #93165-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247 (X)

RE - Satellite Tracking at Hurstmonceux - The U.S. most
certainly *does* have the equivalent - and better. The
GEODSS system has been operational for over a decade, and is
much better than the Hewitt designed camera at Hurstmonceux.
The Hewitt is the same vintage as the Baker-Nunn camera -
and cannot be retrofitted for electronic imaging. Nor could
the Baker- Nunn's - that's why we put the GEODSS system up.

There are certain problems with your SDI theory that simply
don't hold up - and beam spreading is the least. Consider
the behavior of light through a mask, as you propose - there
will be an interference pattern generated *by the mask*
which prevents beam forming.
Tom G.

There is 1 Reply.

#: 93293 S3/Satellite Observing
02-Nov-91 08:53:09
Sb: #93274-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)

I'm not sure I ever suggested that light was beamed through
a mask -- I would rather think that it was the laser
mechanism itself which followed the track of the mask. Like
a router gliding along an S curve. And if we're talking a
couple of hundred miles... well, check out the recently
declassified work on ground-to-atmosphere laser imaging that
the DoD has been conducting since 1980. They've been doing
much better than anything that is suggested here. The only
reason the work was declassified is that civilian scientists
(Canadian I think) reinvented that particular wheel.

When the Air Force announced that it was going to be taking
care of some of its own launchings, rather than relying on
Canaveral's weather and NASA's problem-du-jour, what sorts
of gadgetry were they intending to place in orbit, do you
know? (I am an expert in a number of things, none of which
have to do with SDI or lenses or the American military; so
someone with knowledge of the postulated arcana is probably
going to get badgered to tell what he may tell.)


#: 93294 S3/Satellite Observing
02-Nov-91 08:56:10
Sb: #93015-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Dave Woolcock 100010,2076
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

To check out the Low Earth Orbit theory, presumably we need
to correlate a satellite's movements with crop circle events
on the ground. I know zip about how to do this but:

a) do we have a list of "events" showing: latitude,
longitude, location, date & time, details, weather, xrefs to
photographs etc, whether claimed by hoaxers etc If so is it
available for download anywheres?

b) presumably, unless powered, a satellite's course is
predictable? Is it feasible that such a satellite is
steerable?

c) is there a feasible course that would take a satellite
over the globe's crop circle sites? (i.e. over a Great
Circle extended upwards.. but it could be elliptical etc
though ??)

d) if some sort of beam device is suggested, what kind of
weather would preclude its use?

e) what interference and other side effects are expected if
such a beam is used from LEO height? can they be & were they
detected?

I guess I don't know much about orbits etc, but this makes
you want to know more doesn't it?



#: 93333 S3/Satellite Observing
02-Nov-91 21:16:30
Sb: #93293-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: tom genereaux 76703,4265
To: Michael McDowell 76207,1247

Still doesn't work. Adaptive optics aren't the answer,
either, at higher power levels. Oh, they help a heck of a
lot, but local currents in the heat channel decollimate the
beam. So does local wind, ground currents, and
microturbulance. Now, adaptive optics have been discussed,
and *demonstrated* with varying degrees of success, for a
long time. The bits that got classified had to do with
specific wave front detection functions and with actual fine
control techniques. SPIE, however, has been publishing more
than hints about how to go about it for years. The
declassified stuff showed how to do adaptive optics
relatively cheaply.

The biggest item in the Air Force payload list are a set of
recon satellites. We are down to *two* photo-recon birds,
and one White Cloud constellation. Lacrosse is the only SAR
orbiting. None of this gives the NRO people warm fuzzy
feelings, since the targets of reconnaisance(sp?) are
changing. The Air Force wants to be able to put up
intelligence satellites that don't need to have huge fuel
burns to change the target area - as is now the case. We
damn near got cooked by the lack of photo intelligence in
the early days of the Iraqui invasion of Kuwait. More
satellites increase the
coverage.
Tom G.


#: 93340 S3/Satellite Observing
02-Nov-91 22:04:24
Sb: #93238-#CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Lawrence Geary/NJ 74017,3065

Lawrence, I have to presume that you haven't ready the
original thread, CIRCLES.TXT, or seen current pictures of
the more complex crop formations. If I'm wrong, my
apologies. I mention it, because the 17th century formation
you mention is discussed in the first few pages of the
upload. It's known as "The Mowing Devil," a woodcut was
published in the 1680' (?), and appears in the CCCS book
which also contains the photographs of the crop events. The
book also contains the "Mowing Devil" woodcut. Those who do
find logic in an SDI-like hypothesis of some kind, see it as
one of many pre- existent sources which would confuse the
issue and make objective inquiry difficult. More to the
point, the ancient traditions of the area go back thousands
of years, making it very difficult for scientists to go very
public without using a "disreputable" vocabulary that would
banish them to the occult book shelves. Very convenient.

As to what you ask me to demonstrate and explain, if I
could, I would now be in a safehouse with a bunch of
journalists trying to figure how to break the story. It is
still a speculation - but one based on at least a logical
extrapolation of known, existing technology. Rather than
overload the running thread with rehashes, I encourage you
to read CIRCLE.TXT and CIRCIS.TXT. both in ASTRO lib. 17.
It had a lot more downloads over in ISSUES/PARANORMAL, Lib.
10, having only recently graduated to here.

I think you'll find many of your questions already
addressed, specific research cited, and ongoing experiments
quite specifically described.

As to relative perceptions of what is logical, this is a
legitemate aspect of the discussion, and I have to accept
the burden of communication. So...


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 93341 S3/Satellite Observing
02-Nov-91 22:04:35
Sb: #93340-#CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

I can't address your alternate scenario of detectors in a
grid pattern, but who knows? If they get good enough at it,
maybe they will.

I don't remember saying anything about government(s) sending
messages to other governments by pockmarking wheat wheat
fields, but I suppose one could find solace if it was
perceived by irresponsible governments that nuclear
proliferation was already obsolete. I don't really know
what you mean.

Your notion of strange insect behavior is interesting. Any
suggested family? Who taught them to operate surveying
equipment? Farmers out for a quick buck? The damage to the
wheat field at Barbury Castle, where one of the most
spectacular formations recently occured, came to over ten
thousand pounds. I think that would take a lot T-shirts.
The owner of the field, I am told, offered twenty thousand
to anybody who could duplicate it, if they'd pay ten
thousand for the crop damage. No takers, not even Doug and
Dave, who were promptly taken to court by the Farmers' Union
for recovery of damages to the formations they'd claimed.

I think before any of us come to hasty conclusions about
what is or isn't logical, there's an interesting and
understandable phenomenon in which I take great interest,
which I'll call Collective Denial. Sometimes extraordinary
events occur which carry very frightening implications -
"Too Bad to be True," as it were. Many of history's holes
are buried deeply inside them. I think it's relevant here.


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 93342 S3/Satellite Observing
02-Nov-91 22:04:49
Sb: #93341-CIRCLES.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

I find it especially interesting that this thread never
seemed to take off on the UKFORUM, considering the amount of
private correspondence I'm receiving from various interested
parties, including researches on the site. I wouldn't want
to believe that prototypes of the Twenty First Century's
doomsday machines (I won't say Mannhatan Project) is
operating on my turf. It seems at least discourteous, and
less than forthcoming on the parts of the governments
involved.

I would be the happiest person in the world if the
systematic solicitation of hard information which is the
intent, here, shot my theory to hell. It's not a pretty
notion. With what seems as of now the most "do- able"
explanation out of the way, I would happily move on to more
mundane and/or esoteric lines of inquiry.

Collective Denial can affect the most educated, intelligent,
respectable, honest, and reponsible people in the world.
Without getting sidetracked by conspiracy issues which
become convenient umrellas from the issue at hand,
Collective Denial - the absolute invisibility of logic (and
evidence) from a scenario that is inherently destabilizing
and threatening - I hope you'll relaxedly read the available
material and view the images which your questions suggest
you may not have done yet, then re-examine your sense of
what is logical.

If there was anything logical about all this I suppose this
discussion wouldn't be necessary, but we have to start
somewhere.

BTW, Do I take it that you're in New Jersey? Do you happen
to know if the Army Signal Corps base at Fort Monmouth is
still in operation, and if not, is it occupied by anybody?
- Bob -



#: 93406 S3/Satellite Observing
03-Nov-91 22:41:49
Sb: #93274-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: tom genereaux 76703,4265 (X)

Tom, still appreciating your help on EMP, I think there are
some items in your exchange with Michael McDowell re laser
collimation, stenciling, and other things on which I'd like
to comment. Re Herstmonceaux, speculation about it went
further than simple tracking. Presuming maneuverable,
course correcting satellites, which there are, given the
fact of the location of the Herstmonceaux facility and the
relevance of its alleged capabilities to overflight track
control, plus the fact of secure remote datalink, its
unknown capabilities really make it a sidebar. Relevant
function precludes discard of at least using is at al
"archetypal" element in the process.

I understand that the Signal Corps base at Fort Monmouth is
still alive and well, were I looking for a stateside
situation. Throughout WWII and after, it was and continued
to be a major radar research facility. My father instructed
British radar operators there. I'm in L.A., but lived in
Philadelphia at the time. His other major "commute" was to
the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland. If there were a
test site here, I would look for it there, presuming it
hasn't been shut down, which wouldn't mean anything anyway.
Aberdeen once enjoyed an elaborate Security cloak - woe
betide the unauthorized pilot - Airline included - who even
aimed for it. It had something else - an immense Electronic
and Optical Counter Measure (EOCM) [read 'jams anything,
just about anywhere...'] capability. So maybe some tests
were done here. I would accept Aberdeen as a secure site,
for the sake of broadening speculation.

Then there's the question of "beam prevention by
interference pattern generated by a mask."


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 93407 S3/Satellite Observing
03-Nov-91 22:42:04
Sb: #93406-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

You seem sophisticated about Security paramaters, so I trust
I won't be perceived as running for an umbrella, but your
counters to McDowell in offering what is or isn't being done
in space presume either that everything has been
declassified or you're accepting at face value what
information you can access. What we're talking about
involves projects I know to be at the top of NSA Security,
because I know of attempts to secure mission profiles under
the Freedom of Information Act, including specific
deployments you mention, and the results were 80% censored.

What an electro-physical mask ('stencil') does to a
collimated beam depends on the properties of that mask - its
material, its electrical activity, its magnetic charge - a
variety of things. There is also the process of optical
collimation by which a laser can be optically compressed, as
would a concave mirror with a focal length equal to the
distance to the range. Considering a source emission of
millimeters, beam compression is feasible. There is ample
example of the use of stenciling in medicine - via physical
masks and superconductive electromagnetism. Collimation is
preserved, and can be enhanced. There is absolutely no hard
information on the results of the high temperature
superconduction experiments and long range laser collimation
experiments conducted in space. That such experiments were
conducted is a matter of record. "Yeah. We messed with
that." "What happened?" "Don't ask." What I'm referring to
goes far beyond the sophistication of adaptive optics that
has yet been conceded. As you mentioned, some publications
are giving hints, but the key is probably not in optical
systems, but in superconductive elecromagnetic ones. We
have lots of access to bench test stuff, but at 0 G, ambient
space conditions, and the efficiency of superconductors
there, nada. zip. nothing.


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 93408 S3/Satellite Observing
03-Nov-91 22:42:16
Sb: #93407-#CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

In the prior, in mentioning focal pointing to counter
decollimation or beam spreading, it is presumed for the sake
of the discussion that a ground arrival of several hundred
yards width would suggest some success. Even if a point
were actually achieved, an inverted image would appear on
the other side of the focal plane. I'm not ruling out
micro-scanning as an alternative to stenciling, but this
seems less feasible to me. Looking down from above, for the
sake of argument presuming a LEO emitter at 700 km
(Hubble's at 670' and intended for retrieval) it would be
looking down at a base atmosphere that was pretty thin. One
atmosphere of pressure (the weight of a column inch of
atmosphere all the way from Earth to Heaven) is 14.7 lbs/sq.
inch. That's equivalent to the pressure at 33' feet of sea
water. Throw in the ionosphere, and electrical effects
which are far less at night, (as any 20 meter ham knows),
and given that undersea laser experiments have maintained
point to point collimation through several hundred yards of
clear sea water, I don't think atmospheric effects can yet
be invoked as disqualifying.

You also mentioned the huge fuel burns of maneuverable
satellites. As the Hubble profile states for the record,
LEO's are recoverable, repairable, and refuelable. Just
because one went up doesn't mean it was the only one in the
mission profile.


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 93409 S3/Satellite Observing
03-Nov-91 22:42:31
Sb: #93408-CIRCLE.txt
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

You're right about the deficiency in global coverage of more
conventional devices. There was considerable unhappiness
about that fact in the military, largely because they were
under the impression that given the large number of
deployment missions, they had less than they'd expected. Not
everyone, it seems, knows just which mission did what, or
what payloads were inserted by conventional boosters, later
to be serviced or even linked by subsequent Shuttle
intercepts.

On the question of local currents in the heat channel
decollimating the beam, or local wind, ground and micro-
turbulences, I know of nothing suggesting anything other
than that these effects do not affect collimated light,
microwaves, X-rays or IR the same way in spaceborne
experiments as in laboratory situations. The simple fact is
that we haven't the foggiest idea about the level of
sophistication acheived in the ten highly classified years
of Star Wars funding, which continues in spite of the public
perception that it's a boondoggle, as described by Reagan.
In Bush's recent SALT treaty speech, he was glib enough to
remind us of all the money SALT would free up for SDI
research. He even said it on CNN so it has to be true. <g>
Can we honestly answer with certitude what they've bought
over the years. I know I can't know, but I know enough to
know what is conceivable. This whole exercise here is about
rattling cages. I've had too much direct experience with
classification procedures to believe that the scenario I'm
holding out, as flexible as possible, I hope, isn't covered
by the simple extrapolation of technology already known to
exist.

Bob

John,
telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23
http://ricksbbs.synchro.net:8080
---
þ Synchronet þ Rick's BBS telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23

PART 3




(FOLLOWING SEPT. 22, 1991 UPLOAD OF CIRCLE.TXT FROM WGA
BBS. CONTINUATION OF CIS THREAD FILES CIRCIS.TXT AND
CIRCS2.TXT)



#: 189890 S10/Paranormal Issues
06-Nov-91 23:48:55
Sb: Crop Circles
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165


Hi Terry,

Just finished reading the new MUFON journal and thought
I would see what you thought of it. I found Michael
Chorost's data on the 1991 crop circles to be very
interesting. His information on Marshall Dudley's research
into the radiation found in the samples of the soil from
inside the circles and from outside the circles leading
Dudley to the belief that some sort of plasma energy is
involed and Dr. W.C. Levengood's analyses of the plant
samples that indicate some form of cell damage that might
have been caused by microwave energy (he duplicated a
similar type of cell damage using a microwave oven) made me
think of the Science forum's crop circle message thread file
in the library. I don't know if you have read that file, but
the main point of it was that some of the circles may have
been created by SDI using some form of plasma laser or
microwave (maser) weapon system. It is a good article and I
am considering sending off to the Fund to find out how much
they want for the full report.
I liked Art Hufford's GB photos. The double rings on
the ball shape make it hard to think of the object as an
airplane. Also Bruce Maccabee's letter. Sounds like he is
trying to back off from his confrontation with Rex
Salisberry over the "Current Affair" misunderstanding. If he
is attempting to make peace in his own way then more power
to him. The community needs more cooperation and less
confrontation if it is to get the job done.

How goes the therapy? Have you graduated to the next
level yet? Hope
your doing well.

Terry



#: 189964 S10/Paranormal Issues
07-Nov-91 05:12:46
Sb: #189890-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry, I noticed your note to Terry Ecker, and the reference
to a thread in the "Science" forum about SDI origins for
some of the crop events. I'm the uploader of the original
CIRCLE.TXT, which is in the Paranormal Lib. 10 here. It's
the original thread from the "Science & Health" forum of the
(members only) BBS of the Writers' Guild of Amercia, West
(WGA), Los Angeles. That file, plus the CIS thread that
followed, called CIRCIS.TXT, are in both the SPACE and
ASTRONOMY libraries 17, "New Uploads." Another volume is
yet to come.

The thread continued - especially on ASTRONOMY/Satellite
Obseration. If you're aware of a thread in any location not
mentioned above, I'd like to hear of it. The thread kept
going after CIRCIS.TXT, and has reached quite a level of
development. I'll be uploading a "a second volume" of the
CIS thread as soon as some people have a chance to get the
last word. If you or others here haven't already seen it, I
encourage a look at CIRCLE.TXT and CIRCIS.TXT. I also
apolgize for their length, but the issues raised are of some
importance. I hope you and others will check it out.

Bob


#: 93625 S3/Satellite Observing
07-Nov-91 22:31:26
Sb: CIRCS2.TXT (CIRCLE.TXT)
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: All

CIRCS2.TXT, the continuation of the CIS thread (CIRCIS.TXT),
which was generated by CIRCLE.TXT, is currently in SPACE
Lib. 17. I hated to end it with my own response to some
comments, not wanting to steal the last word. If the thread
continues, it will be resent as soon as a less seemingly
self-serving stopping point is reached. My apologies to any
participants who may feel they were left dangling. The
upload contains directions to where the thread is, to allow
overlap before the next forum pruning.

For the sake of those among "All" who haven't tuned in, this
refers to the "crop circle" thread, debating the possibility
of (some) crop events as being artifacts of satellite borne
laser/maser/other SDI (or something) experiments.

Bob


#: 190998 S10/Paranormal Issues
08-Nov-91 20:17:05
Sb: #190159-#Crop Circles
Fm: Stephen Ryland 72345,366
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

Terry-
Yes, I wonder how many may be crop marks. If you look at
a dense site in Britian you will see many crop marks
identifying buried earthworks, etc. Also, many times the
difference in soil type along the earthworks or slight
elevation differences will cause the grain to grow higher,
sometimes in positive or negative crop marks. When heavy
winds some, this higher grain is knocked down-this is a well
known and studied phenomenon. Of course, this by no means
explains everything, but may explain some.
Steve

There is 1 Reply.


#: 191229 S10/Paranormal Issues
09-Nov-91 07:36:19
Sb: #190998-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Stephen Ryland 72345,366

Stephen, I wanted to acknowledge your thoughts about the
effects of buried earthworks, re (some) crop circle events.
As a result I scanned the available photographs, and see a
few which may be just that. I suspect that when this is
relatively sorted out, some archaeologists will be applying
for excavation grants on a few of them. Only a few,
however.

The formations which triggered the SDI connection, however,
all formed at night, with sharp outlines, relatively
quickly, in the absence of wind, and clearly placed with
precision within the fields. No incursions into adjoining
roads, under fences, or anything like that.

Your thoughts may well account for some, however. (Where's
that grant application manual I had lying around here...)

Bob


#: 191143 S10/Paranormal Issues
09-Nov-91 01:28:50
Sb: #189964-Crop Circles
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445


Hi Bob,

Yes, CIRCLE.TXT is the file I was referring to. I
found it very interesting and informative. I don't really
know what to make of the circles and have been trying to
keep an open mind on them. The SDI angle is as good an
explanation for some of the circles as I have read yet. I
have always felt that there is more capability to SDI than
the government wants us to think about. The umbrella against
nuke warheads was just a way for the government to get the
funding it needed (shades of the Willie Horton scare
tactics). I have not read the CIRCIS.TXT file yet. Is it in
the Paranormal library also? I was unaware that anyone else
on CIS was talking about the circles until I read the
CIRCLE.TXT file. Thanks for uploading it. Have you pulled
together the circles threads from this forum yet (is that
what CIRCIS.TXT is?)? If not, I could go back over my
message files and pull together what I have for you.

BTW, I have no problem with the size of the files, but
you might want to break them down to 60-70K parts. A lot of
people can't work with files that big for one reason or
another.

Terry

#: 191144 S10/Paranormal Issues
09-Nov-91 01:29:04
Sb: #190158-Crop Circles
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165


Terry,

Congrats on your "graduation". Glad to hear your doing
better by the day. It was nice of Anne to set the treader up
the way she did. A perscription pool!! No wonder my
insurance rates are going up <G>. Hope the weather gets
better so that you can use it again before next spring.

Please tell Rex and Carol that I think they have done
an excellent research job on Gulf Breeze and that I hope
they can reach a understanding with Bruce M that will be
satisfactory to both. When you get that copy of
"Soldier of Fortune" please let me know the issue, as I
would like to read it.

Yes, Chorost's ideas about the megaliths and crop marks
was also a good point. I had a 3x5 foot crop rectangle in my
backyard a couple of years ago. Couldn't figure out what
caused it till I dug down about a foot and found a old
septic tank. It must have been put in back in the late 50's
when this end of town was just that, the end of town :).

I think what we are going to find out about the circles
is that they are a combination of many different causes.
Crop marks, hoaxes, weather and natural phenomena, a couple
of UFO's, possibly SDI testing and who knows what else. What
really amazes me is that so much is happening in such a
small area, relatively speaking.

Keep getting healthy,
Terry


#: 191206 S10/Paranormal Issues
09-Nov-91 06:21:31
Sb: #191143-#Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Hi back, Terry. Actually both Terrys'.

I was very pleased at your reaction to CIRCLE.TXT. With the
history of the megalith's, Ley lines, et al - the site
really was made to order. I found the comments about
delayed reactions based on prior sites to be very evocative,
and I would include a few in particular as among "most of
the above." The reason I narrow it to a few is the
precision with which some of the most spectacular align with
current furrows, and include a directional reference
(Barbury is a good example) to true north. Also among the
more recent ones is a copy of an Anasazi (11th century
Arizona) petroglyph. The impression was that somebody made
a mistake or was kibbitzing. Surreal...

The CIRCLE.TXT unfortunately had to be kept intact, since it
had an internal continuity which we (the participants)
agreed needed to be preserved, as the debate left many with
more flexible attitudes than those with which they began.
It was happening on a BBS of professional writers, and the
development of attitudes and the continuity of the thread
seemed seamless. CIRCLE.TXT, as long as it is, astonished us
by the number of downloads it did receive, from the
ISSUES/PARANORMAL Lib. 10 (46, the last time I looked) and
more from SPACE and ASTRONOMY Libraries 17 (New Uploads),
both of which accepted it. CIRCIS.TXT is the compiled
CompuServe thread which ensued, and CIRCS2.TXT is it's
continuation. Both are also in SPACE and ASTRONOMY
Libraries 17. CIRCS2.TXT is the shortest, as we are
painfully aware of the expense of downloading long files.
We knew this theory was (publicly) non-existent elsewhere,
and that it ought to made accessible on a global basis.
Interestingly, the UKFORUM declined it, and the thread there
ended with a lot of empty headers. Hmm. As it turned out,
many of the major contributors were in the UK, having
obtained it from the other libraries.

[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 191207 S10/Paranormal Issues
09-Nov-91 06:21:46
Sb: #191206-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

I only wish I could have included private correspondence I
received from the UK. Some of it was from researchers at
the sites, who were very generous in sending (often at hefty
postal rates) surveys of the best sites, and a sense of the
scene in general. Even those who favored more paranormal
scenarios than "Earth Wars" were very forthcoming. A
collective denial seems to have set in in the UK among the
majority, which is understandable. It can't be easy to deal
with the idea that a potential Manhattan project of the 21st
Century is entering puberty overhead.

For the record, as messages in the files attest, I am not a
UFO debunker. Quite the contrary. But I do see the UFO
aspect as helping to confound the rules of evidence, by
design. I do know that the U.S. Military can simulate a UFO
with specially designed helicopters - made for that purpose
- when they need to do an on-site visit under observation.
Also, as a pilot, though I haven't seen one, I have heard
commercial air traffic in which pilots called ground
facilities for radar verifications of visual sightings, and
always got them. There would follow a discussion whether to
bother with the hassle of a report. There was an eery sense
of "routineness" every one of the four or five times I heard
such dialogues. The most interesting one I overheard
involved a radar operator at ATC say, "your E.T. just made a
right turn at mach 10..." The pilot said, "I just lost
visual contact." The response from radar... "well, we still
have it."

If the SDI scenario can be laid to rest, and we tried very
hard to shoot it down, only to have each attempt give it new
life... we can scientifically move on to more hypotheses.
Nobody would rest more easy than would I.

Bob



#: 191228 S10/Paranormal Issues
09-Nov-91 07:36:12
Sb: Crop circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry, just a compulsive addendum to answer a question you
asked that I didn't answer about the thread files.
CIRCIS.TXT and CIRCS2.TXT make a valiant effort to compile a
thread which had a problem finding a home. Some of it is
here, but much/most of it migrated to
SPACE/Extraterrestrials (S7), and then, when it started to
get attention from scientists - an exposure and devil's
advocacy which was much desired - it continued on
ASTRO/Satellite Observing (S3). If anybody knows of any
traffic elsewhere, I missed it and would appreciate
directions.

BTW, CIRCIS.TXT and CIRCS2.TXT are not in Lib. 10, here,
just in SPACE and ASTRO libs. 17.

Bob

y#: 191405 S10/Paranormal Issues
09-Nov-91 16:29:34
Sb: #191207-Crop Circles
Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

In June 1988 I was visiting a college friend (who had, like
me, started out as a physics major; he went into
programming, I into, uh, English) and his girlfriend in
Huntsville. A former high-level mil-industrial complex R&D
manager (a promoted engineer) delivered an address at the
Huntsville campus of U of 'Bama (or 'Bama State?--I sense
one of the circulating skeptics is gonna be down my throat
in a second, and am too tired, frankly, to care right now)
in which he outlined his reasons for believing that SDI,
from its inception, has been a project devoted to developing
an _offensive_ space-based weapons system. The guy had
impressive credentials; the talk was sanctioned by the
school. I didn't write them all down. Sorry. Proves they
were either bogus or I made them up to justify my (soon to
be asserted) true-believer's paranoiac weltanschauung. I
found his argument quite cogent, quite credible, and in line
with stuff I knew from some people I interned with while a
physics major. There is, of course, the argument from
practicality and feasibility: it's a hell of a lot easier to
aim something at the ground and scorch away than to detect
and track a ballistic missile and/or its warheads, determine
if it is a decoy, and deliver, over a significant span, with
lots of aggressive countermeasures coming at you, a narrow
stream of energy. Think about it for a second. If you had a
nuke-pumped multi-rod gamma laser cruising around, would you
rather fix all the rods on moving targets, using huge
amounts of data fed via other satellites (probably
themselves under attack: the enemy doesn't just sit there,
and satellite-killing is easier than this elaborate scheme),
or would you rather take leisurely aim at several spots of
terra firma, and let the other guy know you had the capacity
to play Spaceman Sherman?


#: 191670 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 00:21:18
Sb: #191405-#Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044

It's good to meet you, Michael. First, may I have
permission to rip off, "Proves they were either bogus or I
made them up to justify my (soon to be asserted) true-
believer's paranoiac weltanschauung?" I can really use that
on the WGA BBS. That made my day, on a number of levels.
Thank you. Our resident skeptics at the WGA invoke inverse
equivalents on a regular basis, and it's a perfect pre-
emption of at least twelve knee-kerk howls per thread
initiation. I really loved it. I'll even give you credit
if you want. Upper or lower case on the name? Starting in
pre-med, as I did, I understand "(uh, English)," too. With
an M.D. mother and a space scientist father there was
nothing for it but to be a Journalism major. Except for a
few later relapses into Think Tank work, I made my escape. I
always loved science and history, and I grew up in an
environment which taught me that objectivity requires a
certain courage when its result raises questions about
presumed fundementals. The enemy of communication, or even
the re-asking of presumably fundamental questions, is often
taken as a direct threat to the security base of the
Discipline under challenge. There is another, of which you
also seem free. Collective denial - the invisibility, by
even the most "educated," astute, intelligent, perceptive,
honorable, well-meaning people, of that which "is too bad to
be true." A scan of the last thirty years of our history,
not to mention a backward projection through millenia of
academic self-contradiction, is a major study in itself.
Taking that tack, I knew going into this thread, that
collective denial would be the major headwind, but that the
burden of communication would be on me, and those who shared
my desire to get the "Earth Wars" option into the public
conversation for the common good. Please excuse this
personal 'dump,' but I guess I want the skeptics to know
that they, too, have my respect, and they *should* challenge
what doesn't work for them, even if the reason is that it
contradicts their education. That's real science.

[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 191671 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 00:21:34
Sb: #191670-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

To return to the thread (with apologies to all for the on-
line charges incurred downloading this monster even with
Tapcis), I was thrilled to see you say out loud the stuff
about nuke-pumped multi-rod gamma lasers. You went straight
to the heart of what the "/other" implies in
laser/maser/other. If my perception of events is correct,
the current state of the art (may da Vinci forgive the
term), may or may not have had time to move beyond what it
is - the prototype testing of scaled down versions of a
technology that doesn't even have a name yet. In the course
of the thread (I don't know how much of the three files so
far uploaded you've read) but a concession was made on one
of the non-paranormal forums that coherent gamma emission
was "theoretically possible," but nobody'd yet figured how
to do it, as though anybody who knew for sure would take the
self-compromising risk of saying so. That requires a lot of
between-the-line reading. One never can be sure if one is
being baited for the revelation of misbegotten sources, is
being discretely "fed" by friends, or is making people
nervous and pitfalls are being dug. Your message was very
welcome indeed.

Re Spaceman Sherman, from recent world developments I would
deduce that the "other guys" (whoever "they" are today) are
getting quite a demonstration that a new definition of
"conventional weapon" has made it to next year's lexicon,
and it confronts them with a wider technological gap than
anyone can afford the time or resources to pre-empt.
Inverting the acronym, the truly immense funding of SDI in
the face of public discreditation, and the importance placed
on its cessation by the Eastern bloc when it first went
"public" strongly suggest that its true purpose (if I'm
right) was suspected, if not known. Maybe it's my own
residual denial at work, but this could be good news or bad
news. It depends who's in control. That's why I find it so
important that people look at this very hard.

Bob


#: 191637 S10/Paranormal Issues
09-Nov-91 22:36:13
Sb: #190998-#Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: Stephen Ryland 72345,366

Steve,

this by no means explains everything

That's for sure! Soil and elevation differences are never so
precisely geometric. Nor, I suspect, do windswept crops
exhibit the changes that are consistent with microwave
exposure.

Malcolm

There is 1 Reply.

#: 191652 S10/Paranormal Issues
09-Nov-91 22:48:48
Sb: #191637-Crop Circles
Fm: Michael McDowell 76207,1247
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243

You're correct. Roman remains, medieval remains, remains of
much more recent times can sometimes be observed from the
air as outlines that are darker or lighter than the
surrounding cover. But these are principally due to a lack
of root space below the surface. A buried wall of a Roman
bath does not obey modern boundary lines; it does not
arrange to exhibit its pattern above quite suddenly and
distinctly after (what must be) years of quietude. The
individual plants that make up crop circles are not shorter
than their neighbors, nor a more intensive gree color --
they are only bent in such a way to form regular (more or
less) figures with irregular (more or less) appendages.



#: 191686 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 01:25:40
Sb: #191228-Crop circles
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)


Bob,

As soon as I get time I'm going to go on over to the
Space forum and download those files. I am looking forward
to reading them. As I said to Terry E., I think that we are
going to find that there are a lot of different causes of
the circles. Then the trick is going to be to try and tell
which causes go with which circles. What a jigsaw puzzle!
One question, could you go into more detail about the
Helicopters that can masquerade as UFO's. This sounds very
interesting.

Terry



#: 191753 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 06:34:19
Sb: #191686-Crop circles
Fm: anders heerfordt 100016,3142
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

It could be the other way around, UFOs masquerading as
helicopters. Certainly in the cattle-mutilation cases, there
have been many sightings of helicopters that could not be
identified, and which behaved in a strange manner, such as
not generating sound. But I didnt read the whole thread, so
my comment may be misplaced.


#: 191778 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 07:19:56
Sb: #191686-#Crop circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405

Terry, about UFO simulations; I reiterate that I'm not a
debunker of UFO's, and I hope everyone reading this saw my
prior narrative to that effect. There are varying versions
about whether the helicopter is NSA, CIA, or Military
proprietary. Most guesses attribute it to the CIA. I
learned of it from a credible, unclassified source, who
happened to stumble on a demonstration of it. I raise it
here, because what was described to me very closely fits
those UFO sightings associated with certain crop circle
events at which UFO activity was reported.

There is no conscious breach of the National Security Act in
the following. It is said to have been designed for "overt
covert" operations of a variety of sorts. It was described
as having a light-absorbing exterior - dull black. The
powerplant is heavily muffled, and a sound emitter (high
pitched) blanks the throb of high rotor-pitch (blade angle
of attack, not tone) operation. On the rotor tips are
programable strobes which can be synched to RPM to give the
illusion of windows. It is heavily overpowered to permit a
relatively silent, low RPM hover, and may have a tripod-type
landing gear designed to give the classic UFO footprint. It
may also have a mist emitter (I realize this sounds far
fetched, but everything seems to be, lately) which can be
"painted" by programmed lasers in the same fashion that rock
concert light shows operate. The effect of the rotor wash on
the mist would be irrelevant to the image painted by the
lasers. And before everybody freaks out...


[More]

There is 1 Reply.

#: 191779 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 07:20:09
Sb: #191778-Crop circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

I was fortunate enough to have tickets to the closing of the
'84 Olympics, here in L.A. The most memorable single
special effect that David Wolper came up with was a UFO
simulation which is still talked about, in a town quite
jaded about such things. A UFO appeared in the stadium,
took off, and went up up and away. Had I seen it from a
country road, or anywhere else, nothing could have convinced
me it wasn't real. It, too, used a laser painted image on a
special surface. The effect was so compelling and dramatic,
as any UFO event must be, that a stadium full of people were
completely unaware that it was on the end of a wire,
connected to a hovering helicopter - also black - very close
by. I only recently found out how it was done.

I don't know if you saw it or not, but on a recent episode
of "Unexplained Mysteries," hosted by Robert Stack, a very
unusual "UFO revelation" was offered. It was about
sightings at a U.S. air base in southern England in the very
early '80's. What made this piece highly irregular was that
it included eyewitness accounts of active reservists and
*still active* Air Force personnel. This, as far as I know,
was unprecedented. The artists' renditions of what they saw
fit the helicopter simulation perfectly - down to the tripod
landing indents, the dimensions, the strobe-like "windows."
It also included descriptions of effects exactly like the
"plasma vortex" and ball lightning effects described by
Meaden, and Ohtsuki, the Japanese researcher.

(Disinformation by association?) I had the overall
impression that the public was being given UFO's to chew on,
for the sake of increasing the diversion. Too many common
elements, too closely timed to publicized inquiries - in
southern England, said to have occured at the time when the
circles were first being noticed. Circles not mentioned.

Bob



#: 192222 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 21:58:11
Sb: #191779-Crop circles
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445


Bob,

Thanks for the info about the UFO simulating
helicopters. They sound like enhanced verisons of the
standard black stealth helicopters that the government uses
for surveillance work.

I don't think that anybody here thinks of you as a
debunker. You contribute thoughts and ideas to the
discussion and that is what it is all about. There is
definitely *something* going on and as you said to Mike H.,
people had better start taking a good hard look at what it
might be. Time is running out and those with their heads in
the sand are going to be in for an AWFULLY rude awakening.

Terry


#: 192057 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 17:49:19
Sb: #191405-Crop Circles
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044

and let the other guy know you had the capacity to play

Spaceman Sherman?<<

Michael, if the crop circles are really intended to "send a
message" to some other country, the sender must presume the
target audience is uncannily perceptive. Excuse my
skepticism but, anyone who can disguise a message with this
degreee of subtlety should have no trouble deciphering all
those diabolical messages that become apparent when rock
music is played in reverse!

I agree with the premise of this thread that SDI activity is
an intriguing possible explanation for crop circle activity
and definitely deserves further inquiry. However, sending
messages to other world powers (or whoever) through crop
circles is a bit of a stretch. It flies in the face of the
underlying theory which is that Wiltshire was selected as a
testing ground in order to camoflauge the activity.


#: 192166 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 20:31:15
Sb: #191143-Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 (X)

Terry,

Who the heck IS Willie Horton?! I've seen the name
repeatedly in the last week or so and have no idea what/who
people are talking about!

Malcolm

#: 192093 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 19:02:43
Sb: #191637-Crop Circles
Fm: Stephen Ryland 72345,366
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X)

Just another possibility for some of the more simple
circles; but it surely sounds like you have your mind made
up. Personally I have not subjected large amounts of
cropland to intense microwave energy, so I cannot determine
if the grain deformation is consistent or not-we have
subjected oil shale to such energy.

Steve


#: 192269 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 23:31:38
Sb: #192166-Crop Circles
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243


Hi Malcolm,

Willie Horton is the black gent who raped a woman
while he was out of prison on work release up in
Massachusetts in the mid 80's. George Bush used the crime to
beat Mike Dukakius <sp?> up in the 88 election. George
played on white fear of mass release of black criminals if
Dukakius was elected, even though Dukakius had nothing to do
with the release of Horton, to get votes.

To me the SDI umbrella to protect little childern from nuke
attack was the same thing. The Reagan people played on the
fears of nuclear war (remember the crayon drawings of the
rainbow shield protecting little Jimmy and mom and dad with
little Jimmy's voiceover) in order to get massive funding
for SDI.

You can scare some of the people some of the time, and
you can scare some of the people all of the time, but if you
can scare most of the people once in a while you can get
anything you want from them and they will never know just
what it was they gave you ;)

Terry

#: 192275 S10/Paranormal Issues
10-Nov-91 23:57:42
Sb: #192057-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Erik, I need to clear up a lingering misinterpretration, and
I take full responsibility for not having communicated it
well. I never meant to simplistically imply that the crop
events were themselves the "signals." I believe Intelligence
exchanges and closed door "FYI briefings" communicated much
more directly what was taking place, all quite thoroughly
modulated by the geopolitical weather, starting quite some
time ago. What the crop formations secondarily happen to
also do is furnish an ongoing demonstration of the level of
R & D. I don't for a moment believe they are anything other
than R & D artifacts, cleverly placed. *The crop events are
not themselves the signals.*

The only reason I can think of for the intensely negative
Soviet reaction to the initiation of the SDI program is that
they knew its true nature from the beginning, as did the
Congressional committees which continued its heavy funding.
We must remember that at the beginning, the players were
Reagan (literally, with script), Ms. Thatcher, and a very
different Eastern Bloc under Brezhnev. Along came Gorbachev,
and SDI was no longer a SALT deal breaker. It had its up
sides for the futures of several countries.

According to media reports here, there is a large
procurement team now in Russia negotiating for the sale and
exchange of hardware and R & D - much of it openly stated as
SDI-related material. The geopolitical sidebars which
reinforce the pattern when run in slow motion parallel to
the crop event calendar, open a subject far too large for
this or any other BBS forum. If and when what I and others
tend to believe is ultimately confirmed, that story will be
fodder for the historians of this very strange period.
First, however, more of the "numbers" in the official
portrait of Bush's "New Order" remain blank. Wiltshire, and
soon Japan, are two numbers not yet painted in. -Bob-



#: 192293 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 04:11:56
Sb: #191405-Crop Circles
Fm: Phillip Schuman 76050,55
To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044

Michael: An overtly offensive mission for SDI was certainly
part of the research (nuclear powered x-ray lasers were
shown fairly early on to have little defensive value, but
research continued apace anyway), but I'm not sure that it
was the preponderant rationale, or that defensive purposes
were not heavily involved as well. The point of the whole
thing is really that even the defensive side had an
offensive aspect, in that it could make a first-strike more
thinkable. No first strike foreseeably could prevent some
sizable fraction of missed, launched on warning, or mobile
launched missiles from being sent in a return salvo, and
even 10 hits on major cities would be an unparalleled social
catastrophe. But if the fractionally sized return salvo
could be knocked down (a task made immensely easier by
downscaling the number of targets by, say, 90%), then it
became thinkable, and the possibility of meaningful nuclear
superiority, and all those war gaming counterforce strike
scenarios, would become operational. This was well
understood, and explicitly forbidden by the ABM treaty,
which limited such defensive attempts to the allowed one or
two systems. A usable and meaningful nuclear superiority was
the Holy Grail of the defense establishment, and nothing
short of SDI would regain it, after the effect of MIRVing
the Soviet heavy launchers. But the offensive side of this
should be given greater attention, since it was specifically
denied in the propaganda treatment designed for its
justification. ...phil



#: 192474 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 10:13:02
Sb: #191671-#Crop Circles
Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

They sure as hell decided to drop out of the weapons race,
didn't they?

I find it curious, and at times disturbing, that the US and
the UN keep swapping positions of authority. Turns out,
according to Newsweek, that the UN team cornered by the
Iraqis _did_ send the data directly to US intelligence. We
also supplied sat data to the UN inspection teams. Now, I'm
no apologist for the Iraqis, but I sorta liked the old days
when the US griped about funding the UN which always voted
against it. Things are real cozy now, and George keeps
mumbling about the New World Order, whatever that means. I'm
not one of those ravers against dread One World Government,
but, hey: we elected the guy to defend, protect etc the US.
Maybe I just think the unexamined privileging, in realms as
diverse as psychology and geopolitics, of unity over
diversity and plurality ought to be examined. Scares me to
think every little state that precipitates out of the once
monolithic Soviet empire might get a bundle of nukes, but
isn't it weird when the Soviets are stopping short only of
begging us to take 'em off their hands? And Cheney, in his
artfully elliptical way, keeps hinting we'd like to.

Isn't there a lag of several hundred years before one gets
the straight historic scoop on a culture? In America, we
suppose that the infoglut implies a correct version of
received current history. I guess the point would be to
figure out how to live until 2400, and get a good dark
chuckle looking back
<g>.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 192494 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 10:41:26
Sb: #191779-Crop circles
Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Vallee takes up the subject of the so-called Bentwaters
incident, and the possibility that it was staged for the
witnesses for several reasons-including gauging whether they
would "buy" the effects if, say, they saw something similar
coming into the base perimeter, or obey orders and fire-and
makes some interesting observations about careful control of
viewing angles, pre-event dispatching of personnel, etc.


#: 192708 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 18:30:22
Sb: #192474-Crop Circles
Fm: Tom Genereaux 76703,4265
To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044

As a practicing amateur historian, one can allow a bit less
than a century elapse before getting the right perspective.
Anything more than that and you get into referential
problems. (Anyone care to try to explain the mindset of the
18th century soldier? Or a 14th century chatelaine?)
However, the following month is too soon.
Tom G.


#: 192476 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 10:15:53
Sb: #192057-Crop Circles
Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

I never claimed, or intended to claim, that the circles were
the result of SDI testing. I jumped in on the discussion of
possible alternative strategic uses of SDI. Wait. That's
redundant.


#: 192509 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 10:58:53
Sb: #192093-Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: Stephen Ryland 72345,366

Stephen,

No, I don't have my mind made up at all; I just blame govt.
out of habit. :) Really, I dunno what's doing it. HOWEVER,
that being said....

I've seen wind. And I've never seen it arrange things to
point to true north. I've seen inconsistencies in a field of
growing vegetation. But it's irregular. If I had some kind
of energy beam (laser or microwave) and a computer system to
control it, it would still be NOT EASY for me to make
patterns so precise. When I first heard about circles, I was
not terribly impressed. I assumed they were approximately
circular with some being maybe elliptical or oval, etc. And
I figured they were couple feet across maybe.

Then I saw the pictures in New Age magazine. I was floored!
The suckers are HUGE! And they're geometric and ultra ultra
precise. Mother Nature took no notice when Euclid started
teaching classes. I think Grace Slick expressed it best when
she said, "You don't see a g**d*** square tree."

To conclude that a hi-tech intelligence is behind the
circles is NOT a leap of faith, IMHO. It's as plain as the
nose on our faces; no, plainer! To conclude that it is
anything else is a leap of skepticism, also IMHO.

Malcolm


#: 192483 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 10:26:36
Sb: #192166-Crop Circles
Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X)

Lee Atwater's best friend.


#: 192494 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 10:41:26
Sb: #191779-Crop circles
Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Vallee takes up the subject of the so-called Bentwaters
incident, and the possibility that it was staged for the
witnesses for several reasons-including gauging whether they
would "buy" the effects if, say, they saw something similar
coming into the base perimeter, or obey orders and fire-and
makes some interesting observations about careful control of
viewing angles, pre-event dispatching of personnel, etc.



#: 192904 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 23:11:02
Sb: #192269-Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405 (X)

Terry,

OK, thanks.

When you say "remember the crayon drawings" I presume that
that was a commercial. I can't remember it cause I'm in
Canada and not all of your stuff gets up here. Especially
the political "hints" they give you. I don't even get any of
the Buffalo stations.

Malcolm


#: 192905 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 23:11:08
Sb: #192483-Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044

Mike,

:) Never heard of Lee either. Was that a joke? :)

Malcolm


#: 192907 S10/Paranormal Issues
11-Nov-91 23:11:18
Sb: #192474-Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044

Mike,

I think the infoglut means that we can't ferret out the
truth now, let alone in future. In S12, Tom left a message
sayingthat Texas had withdrawn six textbooks as unusable.
One of them stated that the US had once dropped an atomic
bomb on Korea! This _was_ a textbook until recently! REA
mesage #191583 for a real head-shaker.

Malcolm


#: 192993 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 06:09:07
Sb: #192509-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243

Malcolm, I couldn't help but notice in your message to
Stephen Ryland your initial expectation of relatively
imprecise circles, ellipse, etc. Interestly, the perfectly
circular ones, few in number, are generally relatively
simple depressions, albeit with the classic "braided
layover" pattern. I have some of the surveys, and reports
from researchers, of the immense, complicated ones with
clearly precise formats, and the circles most often turn out
to be very slightly elliptical - even along the alignment of
whatever straight-line structure connects multiple circles.
The effect isn't consistent with an angle of incidence from
an emission source not directly overhead, but is very
consistent with very slight elongation caused by slight
differential motion, or a collimation effect I know not of.

You'll find among the better pictures of the more recent,
complex ones,some that look unsettlingly like target
reticules. It's a convenient design for evaluating
precision and alignment.

Bob


#: 192992 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 06:08:59
Sb: #192494-Crop circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044

Michael, I'm not familiar with the Bentwater incident, at
least by that name. It sounds like something described to
me in E-mail by a UK pen pal in Wiltshire. Likewise, the
name Vallee is new to me. I'd sure appreciate any
directions you can give me, or at least additional
information about the incident you mentioned.

Another of the rationales for using Wiltshire as test site
had to do with the cover that would be afforded "observers"
who could simply mingle among the metaphysical researchers,
and take the 2 quid tour. Many of them brought electronic
gear, but couldn't be separated from the tourists who brough
technical gear of their own. There was apparently quite a
large and well-equipped Japanese contingent. I mention this
because the preponderance of circle events outside the UK,
numberically speaking, have occured in Japan, as has much
possible parallel research (Ohtsuki and others). I have
video of a few of the Japanese events, and they have a very
different look - more chaotic - and more consistent with the
"plasma vortex" effects so prominent in the literature we're
able to obtain from Japan. One can't help but wonder if
they have an independent program of their own, certainly on
a seemingly smaller scale than the one under discussion,
employing a different basic effect. My alarm bells tell me
not to omit factoring them into the equation.

Bob


#: 193023 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 07:22:34
Sb: #192992-Crop circles
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob:

Given the depth of your research and your WGA membership,
may we anticipate a movie on this subject?

If your UK pen pal referred to the Bentwaters incident he
may have called it the Rendlesham Forest incident. It
occurred in late December 1980 in Rendlesham Forest just
outside Bentwaters AFB, a U.S. NATO base in Eastern England.
Supposedly a UFO in distress made an emergency landing and
was surrounded by USAF security troops. After a "face-off"
between the base commander and one of the diminutive UFO
crew, the crew made repairs and departed, leaving the USAF
with film of the entire incident.

The most extensive published account of the incident so
far is a not very satisfying book called *Sky Crash* by
Jenny Randles, Dot Street and Brenda Butler (Neville
Spearman 1984). I've been told by an AF colonel that,
according to some participants, the most accurate account
was published in *Soldier of Fortune*, but I'm still waiting
for him to find his copy and tell me which issue it was in.
There's a book in progress by a fellow named Larry Warren
who claims to have been there. Also, there's a paper on the
case by Raymond Boeche, of Lincoln, Nebraska and MUFON, in
the 1986 MUFON Symposium Proceedings. According to Boeche,
Nebraska's Senator James Exon looked into the case
personally and then refused to discuss it, even with his
staff.

Terry


#: 193217 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 17:26:09
Sb: #192275-Crop Circles
Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

I tend to agree that IF crop circles are related to SDI then
it is PLAUSIBLE that they are "R & D artifacts" as you
state. I would also agree that they are not themselves the
signals and that the signals are carried on in a more
conventional manner. However it must be considered that the
circles may also serve as _camouflaged_evidence_ with their
nature known to all the "players."

Although it causes hope to swell, it makes me nervous that
so much peace-making is going on all at once. What does it
mean? Will we see Northern Ireland laying down arms next?
Is the US playing "make peace or we shoot you"? Are we
simply witnessing some last-minute preparations for the end
of the millenium (a la the previous millenium-end)? I think
that Dennis Hopper's character was correct in Flashback when
he said that the "Nineties are going to make the Sixties
look like the Fifties" - only more so.

Dennis


#: 193073 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 08:53:10
Sb: #192708-Crop Circles
Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Tom Genereaux 76703,4265 (X)

Point on the 14th-c chatelaine well-taken. I was once in a
Chaucer seminar that foundered on the point (the prof and I
took one side--evil cultural conservatives that we were; the
others took the "progressive" side) of whether we could make
assumptions about Chaucer's attitudes, and thus use them as
guides in interpreting his ironic intent, based on his
posited enlightened adherence to current value systems. I
thought the whole thing was wishful thinking. And presentist
chauvinism of the worst sort.



#: 193074 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 08:55:26
Sb: #192907-Crop Circles
Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X)

Yes, I saw the article on the lamentable textbooks. Late in
1991, before the Berlin Wall fell, the State of Texas
rejected a number of public-school history textbooks because
of errors of fact. <g>


#: 193217 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 17:26:09
Sb: #192275-Crop Circles
Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

I tend to agree that IF crop circles are related to SDI then
it is PLAUSIBLE that they are "R & D artifacts" as you
state. I would also agree that they are not themselves the
signals and that the signals are carried on in a more
conventional manner. However it must be considered that the
circles may also serve as _camouflaged_evidence_ with their
nature known to all the "players."

Although it causes hope to swell, it makes me nervous that
so much peace-making is going on all at once. What does it
mean? Will we see Northern Ireland laying down arms next?
Is the US playing "make peace or we shoot you"? Are we
simply witnessing some last-minute preparations for the end
of the millenium (a la the previous millenium-end)? I think
that Dennis Hopper's character was correct in Flashback when
he said that the "Nineties are going to make the Sixties
look like the Fifties" - only more so.

Dennis


#: 193078 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 09:04:48
Sb: #192905-Crop Circles
Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X)

Lee Atwater, dirt engineer. An OK guy, even though he worked
for causes I didn't like, until he got a brain tumor and
went touchy-feely.



#: 193076 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 08:58:47
Sb: #192992-#Crop circles
Fm: michael houdeshell 70004,1044
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Vallee is one of the more non-partisan researchers and
writers on the UFO phenomenon. The people who insist on a
nuts-n-bolts space-buggy explanation hate him; the people
who insist on purely psychological or metaphysical
interpretations hate him. He's conservative in the formation
of opinions. He'd like to reach conclusions by employing the
methodology of science. That bugs some people.

There is 1 Reply.


#: 193093 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 09:56:44
Sb: #193076-Crop circles
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044 (X)

Vallee is one of the more non-partisan researchers and

writers on the UFO phenomenon.

He's also one of the better qualified, as an
astrophysicist and computer expert who has been interested
in UFOs since 1960 and has spent much time, effort and money
going to primary sources for firsthand investigation. And
yes, he does bug some people. Not me, of course. (sniff)


#: 193084 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 09:37:24
Sb: #192992-Crop circles
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

addendum:

Bob:

While waiting for a lady at *Soldier of Fortune* to call
me back with the info about the article on Bentwaters I've
been re-reading your previous messages. In #191778/191779
you mentioned a recent episode of *Unexplained Mysteries*
about "sightings at a U.S. air base in southern England in
the very early '80's." I, too, saw and taped that episode;
it was about the Bentwaters incident but was pretty
superficial, based almost entirely on the published parts of
the tape recording made at the time by Col. Charles Halt.

Terry


#: 193470 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 01:17:25
Sb: #193217-#Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Dennis Williamson 73260,350

Dennis, your message reflects the point of view I personally
hold. Even down to the IF and PLAUSIBLE. Though the crop
effects may be artifacts of testing, those artifacts are
also a very clear demonstration of the level of R & D.
placing them on public display as camouflaged evidence to
all the "players" would certainly be an invaluable function
as well. Your point is well taken. Whichever side of the
game the "players" are sitting, I don't doubt that
incredible displays of '90 and '91 is for some of them,
tantamount to ego death.

I also see a pattern in the outburst of peace making. IF
I'm right about the cause of the crop events, we are seeing
exponential evolution in the technological context. Why
bother with a physical bomb in an airplane when you can
deliver it with a rocket? Why bother with a rocket when you
can make a bomb that delivers itself and is Smart? Why
bother with the delivery of a device of any kind if
technology permits eliminating all the "middle things."
Conceptually, its darkest side is that of the ultimate clean
bomb, surgically precise. The Dennis Hopper quote really is
apt, perhaps. I've used the term "Manhattan Project of the
21st Century."


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 193471 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 01:17:37
Sb: #193470-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

For the sake of speculation, there sits an essentially
impoverished former knee-jerk foe. It cannot justify at
home what an "SDI" (henceforth read Earth Wars) competition
would entail. A quantum conceptual leap into the future has
been made. Nor is Russia any longer able or willing to
shore up any allies anywhere. Pulling their own weaponry
back into controllable clusters (as is being done, since the
lesson of the coup), we negotiate them under the umbrella of
SDI. They retain a strong regional capability, since given
the large Moslem poulation within their borders, and
strained relations with China, AND a rock/hard-place
economic situation, we become the perfect closet ally.

So what's in it for Russia, and for us? And how does it
affect the Middle East so as to accelerate the inevitability
of regional accommodations? Russia needs collateral for an
international line of credit on which to base a convertable
ruble - the only basis for a realistically hopeful economic
future. We need energy independence, and a new, even if
covert, defense industry. Russia's collateral is its oil
reserves, and the Middle East knows it. Factor in Israel's
dependence on the U.S. for economic survival, and suddenly
accommodation is the only possible scenario. What we are
left with are newly defined Second and Third Worlds,
scurrying to realign into a viable "New Order," as Bush
unfortunately terms it.

You put it very well. "...last minute preperations for the
end of the millenium." I sure wish I could see a story
board for the next one.

Bob


#: 193447 S10/Paranormal Issues
12-Nov-91 23:40:09
Sb: #193023-Crop circles
Fm: anders heerfordt 100016,3142
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

There is a tape recording available from the Rendelsham
Forest case. The recording was made (by the deputy base
commander?) during the incident. It is sort of a
journalistic record of the incident, with some emotion.


#: 193472 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 01:17:51
Sb: #193023-Crop circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

Thanks for the compliment, Terry, but the depth of my
research is relative. All I'm really doing is gathering
together the pieces of a puzzle which fit into the pattern
and refuse to be dislodged. As for the WGA, no movie is
planned. This one's a freebee. We are the movie, right
here at our keyboards. The circles themselves are strictly
documentary material, being done by people closer to the
scene, and with more intimate knowledge of the affected
place. The quickest way to abort an attempt to place an
important and hitherto invisible (for psychological reasons,
I think) scenario on the discussion menu would be to attempt
to fictionalize it.

Given the level of Security under which this must be
happening, if it's happening, to dramatize this scenario
would be to neuter it. It took a person on the moon to get
space flight off the occult book shelves and into
universally respectable conversation. What it will take
here is a simply structured scenario that will stand up by
itself, walk, and take on a life of its own. I suppose that
professional writers get more practice at that than most
people. Fictioneering is a lot easier than this, though.

I'll respond to the Bentwaters information in my response to
your message about the UFO show you taped. Therein resides
a maze.

Bob


#: 193474 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 01:18:16
Sb: #193076-Crop circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044

I noted with a smile your characterization of Vallee, and
Terry Ecker's response. This guy wouldn't bug me at all. He
sounds like he understands what it takes to "get any
respect" from academic orthodoxy. Invoking metaphysical
terms is professional suicide. With metaphysicians whose
rules of evidence are different, the fusion is a real
tightrope, and probably inadequate to satisfy both. I wish
him well.

I come from a clearly defined place, and have fought those
wars myself. I see no distinction between metaphysical
events and natural history. If it's happening, it's
happening. If the rules of evidence get in the way of
investigating it, change them. Or, at least suspend
disbelief before refuting them. I think many people hold
positions out of subjective need. Many academicians are
terrified of rethinking the fundamentals, because of the
threat to what they believe is their unimpeachable,
axiomatic data base. That is pretty scary. On the other
hand, weird stuff happens, and if it contradicts what we
think is true, I say that's the way it goes. The fact
always remains that the fact remains. If it can't be
explained, that won't make it go away, even if it does
contradict the fundamentals.

I wish Vallee and some heavy hitting closet Vallees' I know
of luck. His greatest hazard is the burnout of frustration.
He's working in areas of academia in which the more one
thinks one Knows, the harder it is to cognize or even
tolerate anything which threatens it. I like to believe
that no True Faith has anything to fear from the truth. A
bit of vocabulary adjustment, maybe... but that's not so
bad.

Bob

#: 193473 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 01:18:02
Sb: #193084-Crop circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

Thanks for the information about prior narratives of the
Bentwater incident. It isn't the one my UK pen pal was
talking about - but is certainly the same one as the subject
of the "Unexplained Mysteries" segment I referred to. It
was interesting to learn from you that the report does have
a prior history. I too taped the segment, and replayed it
before writing this.

Whatever the true nature of the original event, whether an
actual UFO event or one staged to cover the early crop
events from the beginning, there were aspects to the program
which marked it for me as opportuning on the UFO alternative
to add to the chaos of covers. I don't recall ever seeing
an "expose" of a military sighting and cover up in which
active duty personnel or even people on active duty at the
time were allowed to speak on the TV record in so direct a
fashion. From the feel and look of the piece, all my
professional instincts tell me it was put together with the
participation of the military. This implies redirection and
disinformation.

It would be a shame if a bona fide UFO event were a casualty
of this surrealism unfolding around us.

I will look up those sources you cited before I go out on a
limb and say that it was also staged for the benefit of out-
of-the-loop military personnel as well, in the interests of
keeping an ongoing disinformational opportunity alive. As a
UFO believer, it pains me have to play devil's advocate with
them.

Bob



#: 193469 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 01:17:13
Sb: Crop circles (errata)
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrekston 70312,3576

Hello, Erik. For credibility's sake, I'd like to correct an
error I made about an illustration in the Centre for Crop
Circle Studies (CCCS) book. In a prior, when discussing the
20/20 coverage this past year, I mentioned that on the
program they showed footage of some military personnel
attepting to fake one. I also said that I'd seen the same
one in the CCCS book, "The Crop Circle Enigma," 1990
edition. I was wrong. I just got the book back from a
friend to whom I'd loaned it, and memory had played a trick.
I saw the picture all right, but elsewhere.

I gave the impression that the CCCS book had been fooled,
and this wasn't the case. I was being a sloppy "reporter."
The book is now in a 2nd edition, and I recommend it highly
as a source of excellent photographs for stufy, and the
presentation of a variety of widely differing theories.

Maybe If I sell a few copies here for the CCCS, they'll
forgive me.

Bob


#: 193554 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 08:29:55
Sb: #193471-#Crop Circles
Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Can the Defense Industry justify its activities without a
clearly-defined enemy? The Soviet Union provided just the
right amount of paranoia. Can the (apparently newly-
peaceful or subdued) Middle East? Or the sleepy Chinese?
How long will the public go along with "we have to be ready
- just in case (someone _becomes_ an enemy)"?

So are you saying that Russia needs us to buy oil from them
and the Middle East needs us to continue and we are playing
one supplier against the other? Hmmm, it might be nice to
live in a buyer's market for a change. So the "New World
Order" puts us back on top with all the muscle (both as a
military power and a power consumer). What leverage will we
use to subdue Germany and Japan? Interesting that we have
come (somewhat) full circle.

"...last minute preparations..." - You realize that my
statement sarcastically assumed that the "players" are
fearful that they had better get their houses in order so as
to be ready for Judgement Day. Else years ending in three
zeros have no special significance. Gonna be a heck of a New Year|Century|Millenium party on 12/31/2000, though (not to
mention the Oops I Thought it Was on 12/31/1999 party).

Until we (and George) start acting locally, though, not much
progress will be made. Peace begins at home. While we
continue to beat our children, rape our women, subdue our
poor (educationally and economically), starve our hungry,
drug ourselves, destroy our environment, ... abstract ideas
like world peace have little meaning.

Dennis


There is 1 Reply.

#: 193757 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 16:45:50
Sb: #193554-Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: Dennis Williamson 73260,350

Dennis,

While we continue to [have no peace at home] world peace

[has] little meaning

Right on! We should all ask ourselves why the latter seems
more important than the former for the New World Order.
Maybe cause the domestic situation has been taken care of?

Malcolm


#: 193592 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 09:42:02
Sb: Crop Circles
Fm: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

What the crop formations secondarily happen to also do is

furnish an ongoing demonstration of the level of R & D.<<

Bob, I apologize for not being more clear in my comments.
It was not my intent to attribute to you or anyone else a
suggestion that the circles themselves contained any
particular message. I meant to convey my skepticism that any
other country would recognize them as artifacts of SDI
testing. Are you suggesting that the Soviet intelligence
community is aware of the "true" nature of crop circles?
"Geopolitical sidebars" (nice ring to that phrase!)
notwithstanding, nothing I've seen on this thread reinforces
that notion.

I believe Intelligence exchanges and closed door "FYI

briefings" communicated much more directly what was taking
place, all quite thoroughly modulated by the geopolitical
weather, starting quite some time ago.<< Without wanting
to sound too demanding, what evidence do you have for this
rather remarkable statement?

Why bother with a physical bomb in an airplane when you

can deliver it with a rocket?<< Once again, even assuming
the crop circles are SDI related, this thread has produced
no evidence that "the force" is any more dangerous than a
large dust devil. Why the sudden conclusion that it has
destructive powers which, so far as I know, have yet to be
demonstrated?



#: 193568 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 09:15:34
Sb: #192993-#Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Bob,

I'm just waiting for them to duplicate TV test patterns and
for some expert to come along and tell me it's the wind.

Malcolm


There is 1 Reply.

#: 193641 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 12:16:55
Sb: #193568-Crop Circles
Fm: Russ Ranshaw 70000,1010
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X)

Malcolm,

> "... it's the wind."

Well, as the adage goes, "It takes one to know one." :)

-Russ


#: 193981 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 21:39:02
Sb: #193568-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243

Malcolm,

I think if they made a five acre duplicate of da Vinci's
self-portrait some expert would come along and tell us it's
the wind.

Bob


#: 193982 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 21:39:20
Sb: #193554-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Dennis Williamson 73260,350

Dennis, permit me a 200 decibel AMEN to your comment about
the need to get our local house together as the first order
of priority. No qualifiers.

Sadly, the genesis of Bush's mindset, not to mention the
story of his life, seems to have left him with no such
perspective, except when the polls tell him he needs to
produce new lips to read. I don't mean to politicize this,
because then political agenda tends to become the subject,
occluding our ability to isolate the subject of the thread.

We probably are playing the oil marketplace, with Russia not
only a major supplier to us, but as an alternative for the
much of the rest of the industrialized world. Its mapped
and known reserves are as great or greater than those of the
Middle East. Only development has been lacking. The fact of
the existence of the reserves, however, is in itself enough
collateral for the international line of credit I mentioned.
The third competitor then becomes China. Russia's and
China's reserves combined exceed those of the rest of the
world together. With Russia free of the expense of the arms
race, her economic future is actually quite positive.
Maintaining an "enemy" of some sort is indeed needed for
full-bore funding of DoD. We seem to be keeping China in a
very gray area since TienAnMen. Could it be that that the
democratization of China was the last thing we wanted to
see? We've been very forgiving. And, not terribly hospitable
to the Chinese students who escaped, who are still having
problems with the INS. German unification (not a
universally happy prospect) has distracted them for the time
being. They're hanging out to dry at the moment. Stay
tuned.

I took your "millenium" line in the spirit intended. You
were right about New Years Eve. I think the millenium ends
when 2001 arrives. That's why they called the movie that...
-Bob-

Japan might have a program of its own. Being totally energy
dependent from outside, embroiled in rising tensions over a
variety of economic with the US, facing a possible trade war
which they can afford more easily than we can (but not for
long).


#: 193983 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 21:39:43
Sb: #193592-#Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Erik Albrektson 70312,3576

Erik, thanks for the compliment on the ring of my phrase.
You clearly understand how to soften up a writer. But alas,
no mercy.

I don't understand your skepticism that other countries
wouldn't recognize the crop events as (possible) "SDI"
testing. If some here can, why not the analysts of other
countries. Just because this is the only conversation I
know of being publicly held on the subject, I wouldn't
presume who knows what, how they found out, whether they
were informed, or why. Nor would I cling to the KGB as the
enemy archetype. They have their own problems, and it isn't
us. Do you have any idea how many L.A. writers are going on
Prozak because they have to rewrite scripts with different
enemies? It's become an industry joke, not to mention a
sensitive area in our standard contract viz-viz what
constitutes a legitimate re-write. (Woops. I'm not
supposed to talk about that. Classified.) How's Prozak
selling in the UK these days, by the way...?

You aren't being too demanding about evidence for closed
door "FYI briefings." If I had it, I'd be Gary Sick with an
"October Surprise" book, being interviewed on CNN, or
Nightline, for evidence of this "rather remarkable
statement." If I were in a position to have such evidence,
other than what my own logical processes dictate, based on
direct perception as an outsider, I sure wouldn't be
documenting it here, unless they allow modems in the
slammer. (Do they still call it "gaol" in the UK, Erik?)

"The Force" in the following.


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 193984 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 21:39:57
Sb: #193983-#Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

Your right that this thread has produced no evidence that
"the force" is any more dangerous than a large dust devil.
No conclusion was stated or implied anywhere in the thread
by me, at least, to the contrary.

Development of an atomic bomb was preceded by an experiment
at the University of Chicago in which a primitive reactor
verified the underlying principles. But once that feeble
demonstration was made, the fact of the bomb was presumed as
simply a matter of time, the desired effect being one of
degree, not possibility.

The landing of Surveyor on the moon made Apollo 11 a matter
of time. Actually the hard part was accomplished by Apollo
8. Few realize how tiny the re-entry window of the return
trip was. Once conquered, that particular "hope this
works..." was behind us. All that follows will have been a
matter of time referenced to that accomplishment.

When the first laser was generated and recognize almost
thirty years ago, sheet metal cutting, holography,
programmable CD's, scanners, my beloved printer, all these
became inevitabilities. It was presumed that something new
(to put it mildly) was about to occur, but what those things
might be were inconceivable until the fact of the
microprocessor became a reality.

Nobody is saying that these experiments yet have the
destructive powers you say I claimed. As you say, they have
yet to be demonstrated. What has been demonstrated to my
satisfaction, at least, is that given the lessons of
history, it's only a matter of time, and Apollo 8 is now
behind us. I will be quite pleased if we are forever spared
that demonstration.


[More]


There is 1 Reply.

#: 193985 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 21:40:12
Sb: #193984-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

[Continued]

Erik, my apologies for yet another addendum, but our
exchange demonstrates something I think is important. Think
of this thread as the scrutiny of a newly identified
archaeological artifact. We are archaeologists now. We
have noticed something so full of natural anomalies that we
must pursue the possibility of intelligent manufacture. The
scientific method demands that we begin with the most
conceivable explanation, based on knowns. Once those are
exhausted, we relax the rules of evidence a bit and proceed,
kicking around the unkowns.

What we don't do is ask "why would they make something like
that...?" and all the other questions that are irrelevant
until the fact of the artifact's existence is conceded.
Unless the artifact "beams off screen," I don't have to deal
with "evidence" for anything but its existence. Not the
credibility of closed door "FYI briefings," which on this
side of the pond doesn't seem remarkable at all; not the
potential for undemonstrated powers. Nada. Zip.

I'm pointing at something, saying "what the hell's that?,"
offering a scenario consistent with the Known, hoping I'm
wrong. E.T.s and/or telluric energy patterns would be much
more exciting and less threatening, except to professional
debunkers of the paranormal, whose agendas vary.

Does your attribution to me of sudden conclusions I haven't
made, or "demands" for evidence of "FYI briefings" I am only
suggesting, imply that you are struggling to believe or
disbelieve our "theory?" This isn't yet clear to me. If it
were, perhaps I could address your questions better. Either
way is okay. I'll hang in there. Maybe I'm asking you to
ask yourself the question.

Bob



#: 194053 S10/Paranormal Issues
14-Nov-91 03:14:42
Sb: #192904-Crop Circles
Fm: Terry Rodemerk 76357,405
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243


Hi Malcolm,

>I don't even get any of the Buffalo stations.

Sorry,I keep forgetting that you live north of the
border, Toronto I believe.

Yes, the US political machine uses the media quite
heavily to lobby the people for one thing or another. I'm
sure that you get the same type of thing in Canada. The SDI
commercials were a beauty. They used the voices of a little
boy or girl (depending on the commercial) talking about how
mommy and daddy (picture of a crayon drawing done like a
child would of mommy and daddy and little boy/girl standing
outside their house) were worried that the Russians could
launch a nuclear strike at the US (crayon picture of bombs
falling through sky above house) and that there was nothing
that they could do to stop it. The little voice continues
that Pres. Reagan wants to put an shield, like an umbrella,
over their heads (crayon drawing of a rainbow between the
bombs and the house and mommy and daddy and little boy/girl)
to protect them. Little voice then asks,"Isn't this a good
idea!". Cut to address of local Congressman/woman to write
to. Tell them to support SDI bill.

Hey, this kind of stuff works for the toy companies. I
guess that the government figured what the heck, give it a
try. SDI still gets major funding so I guess it worked.

BTW, even the people living in Buffalo don't always "get"
the Buffalo stations. Boy am I going to catch it for saying
that <Big Grin>.

Terry


#: 194000 S10/Paranormal Issues
13-Nov-91 23:17:42
Sb: #193641-Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: Russ Ranshaw 70000,1010

Russ,

ALIEN BREAKS WIND; BREAKS CROPS! :D

Malcolm


#: 194116 S10/Paranormal Issues
14-Nov-91 07:05:40
Sb: #193982-Crop Circles
Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Yeah, Bush's having come from CIA certainly would give him a
more international outlook.

Japan learned much from us in order to get where they are
now. I'm afraid that in the process they couldn't help but
get contaminated by our faults as well. The signs are
beginning to show.

Dennis


#: 194183 S10/Paranormal Issues
14-Nov-91 09:52:20
Sb: #193983-Crop Circles
Fm: Terry Ecker 71207,1165
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob:

Do you have any idea how many L.A. writers are going on

Prozak because they have to rewrite scripts with different
enemies?

Are you familiar with Zecharia Sitchin's *Genesis
Revisted*? If so I would be very interested in your opinion
of his hypothesis. If not, I think you might find the book,
especially the last chapter, very pertinent to your interest
in SDI and the surprisingly fast and smooth realignment of
world powers we've been watching. He does at least
hypothesize an explanation of it all, with a hypothesis that
accounts for the known facts even if it turns out to be
horse feathers. And he does hypothesize a new enemy -
actually an ancient enemy returning: the Nefilim of the Old
Testament, headed our way once more aboard the planet
Marduk, this time to be greeted by SDI.

Terry



#: 194353 S10/Paranormal Issues
14-Nov-91 16:52:25
Sb: #193981-Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445

Bob,

I think you're right. Gee, I guess it _must_ be the wind,
eh? ;)

Malcolm



#: 194116 S10/Paranormal Issues
14-Nov-91 07:05:40
Sb: #193982-Crop Circles
Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Yeah, Bush's having come from CIA certainly would give him a
more international outlook.

Japan learned much from us in order to get where they are
now. I'm afraid that in the process they couldn't help but
get contaminated by our faults as well. The signs are
beginning to show.

Dennis



#: 194353 S10/Paranormal Issues
14-Nov-91 16:52:25
Sb: #193981-Crop Circles
Fm: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243
To: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445 (X)

Bob,

I think you're right. Gee, I guess it _must_ be the wind,
eh? ;)

Malcolm



#: 194518 S10/Paranormal Issues
14-Nov-91 21:55:52
Sb: #193073-Crop Circles
Fm: Tom Genereaux 76703,4265
To: michael houdeshell 70004,1044

It's unfortunate, but the current "thinking" tries to impute
modern Western thinking on a distant culture. Doesn't work.
Tom G.


#: 194117 S10/Paranormal Issues
14-Nov-91 07:05:50
Sb: #193757-Crop Circles
Fm: Dennis Williamson 73260,350
To: Malcolm O'Brien 76703,4243 (X)

How has the domestic situation been "taken care of"? I
assume you meant it sarcastically, but can you be more
specific?

Dennis





#: 194603 S10/Paranormal Issues
15-Nov-91 05:57:03
Sb: #194183-Crop Circles
Fm: Robert Sabaroff 71251,2445
To: Terry Ecker 71207,1165

Terry, thanks for the referral to *Genesis Revisited.* It
sounds like a good one for the collection. Your precis was
tantalizing. It would be a wonderful irony if after
spending all that money on an SDI that only points down, it
*did* get blindsided by the Nefilim on board the planet
Marduk.

I love it.

Bob

John,
telnet://ricksbbs.synchro.net:23
http://ricksbbs.synchro.net:8080
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